ACL treatment without surgery? - MyCorgi.com2024-03-28T08:42:03Zhttp://mycorgi.com/forum/topics/acl-treatment-without-surgery?commentId=1150197%3AComment%3A1620504&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI have been giving Milly anti…tag:mycorgi.com,2012-09-16:1150197:Comment:16223042012-09-16T01:08:07.791ZDana Chttp://mycorgi.com/profile/DanaC
<p>I have been giving Milly anti inflammatory meds at nighttime and during the day she seems just fine as she wanders the house but in the evening is when she really starts favouring her leg even though she put pressure on it and walked on it fine during the day. Is this normal?</p>
<p>I will take her to the other vet next week for a second opinion and hopefully some type of diagnosis so that I know what I am dealing with. If surgery is required, it will have to wait a couple of months due to…</p>
<p>I have been giving Milly anti inflammatory meds at nighttime and during the day she seems just fine as she wanders the house but in the evening is when she really starts favouring her leg even though she put pressure on it and walked on it fine during the day. Is this normal?</p>
<p>I will take her to the other vet next week for a second opinion and hopefully some type of diagnosis so that I know what I am dealing with. If surgery is required, it will have to wait a couple of months due to other issues but all the positive feedback on the surgery has convinced me that that is the way to go. It was all the information out there that started to make me doubt things. I guess the key is to get a firm diagnosis.</p> @Dana - Snickmom is correct.…tag:mycorgi.com,2012-09-15:1150197:Comment:16221932012-09-15T18:30:27.753ZLucy & Ricky (Wendy/Jack )http://mycorgi.com/profile/wsgf822
<p>@Dana - Snickmom is correct. We waited several months before RR's surgery. We had 2 surgeries scheduled and both were canceled bec. RR seemed perfect; one we canceled, the other the surgeon canceled! Sounds like you must take care of yourself properly if you are going to be able to take care of Milly after her surgery. Just keep Milly comfortable and restrict her activity as best you can (not always 100% possible as we all know, esp. w/ active Corgis); no steps, jumping, running, frapping…</p>
<p>@Dana - Snickmom is correct. We waited several months before RR's surgery. We had 2 surgeries scheduled and both were canceled bec. RR seemed perfect; one we canceled, the other the surgeon canceled! Sounds like you must take care of yourself properly if you are going to be able to take care of Milly after her surgery. Just keep Milly comfortable and restrict her activity as best you can (not always 100% possible as we all know, esp. w/ active Corgis); no steps, jumping, running, frapping (read: no fun permitted ;) Also ask you vet about pain meds or non-steroidal anti-inflammatory medication. Dogs tolerate a lot of pain, and often don't show it like we humans. So you want to be sure that she's comfortable. It's my understanding that even with surgery, there will be some arthritis in the leg down the line. A few months shouldn't matter if you're vigilant. However, if you have to be so vigilant now, is it possible that you can manage Milly's surgery now? The hardest part for me has not been the surgery, but the vigilance and restrictions. If you're going to be doing that anyhow, maybe just consider the surgery now. Sorry, I've just done a 180 degree switch in my thinking. Obviously, it's a hard decision!</p> Doggie jail, that's it exactl…tag:mycorgi.com,2012-09-15:1150197:Comment:16221512012-09-15T02:11:44.897ZDana Chttp://mycorgi.com/profile/DanaC
<p>Doggie jail, that's it exactly! She has so much energy and doesn't understand why we ignore her obvious attempts to get us to throw her the ball. I am seeing another vet next week that came highly recommended but as you say I can't take care of her now the way she needs after surgery. With my current injuries and my upcoming surgery I am not allowed to bend or lift and I have so many stairs in my house. I am with her all day but if I can't help her I'm pretty useless and this time of year,…</p>
<p>Doggie jail, that's it exactly! She has so much energy and doesn't understand why we ignore her obvious attempts to get us to throw her the ball. I am seeing another vet next week that came highly recommended but as you say I can't take care of her now the way she needs after surgery. With my current injuries and my upcoming surgery I am not allowed to bend or lift and I have so many stairs in my house. I am with her all day but if I can't help her I'm pretty useless and this time of year, my family is only around for a few hours in the evening. Very frustrating!</p>
<p>Aside from the anti-inflammatory and restricted activity, what else are you to do for Al if your diagnosis is inconclusive? I bought glucosamine/chondritin today and will start Milly on that for her joints. I know there was one incident that caused her to limp but she was struggling to get up when over-tired for a few months so my heart feels like it's not a torn acl but something else. I will keep you posted and please do the same regarding Al.</p> Talked to Carrie Hale, our br…tag:mycorgi.com,2012-09-14:1150197:Comment:16213522012-09-14T22:50:52.037ZJohn Wolffhttp://mycorgi.com/profile/JohnWolff92
<p>Talked to Carrie Hale, our breeder, yesterday, and asked her about the consequences of delaying surgery. She's not a vet or a surgeon, but her opinion is that sooner is better than later. Ask your vets. But the reality is that you can't nurse a sick dog when you're recovering yourself. If you postpone the dog's surgery, allow the animal no opportunity to exacerbate the injury. I was told to keep Al crated and leashed ALL the time until we got a diagnosis (he was so dopey an Tramadol the…</p>
<p>Talked to Carrie Hale, our breeder, yesterday, and asked her about the consequences of delaying surgery. She's not a vet or a surgeon, but her opinion is that sooner is better than later. Ask your vets. But the reality is that you can't nurse a sick dog when you're recovering yourself. If you postpone the dog's surgery, allow the animal no opportunity to exacerbate the injury. I was told to keep Al crated and leashed ALL the time until we got a diagnosis (he was so dopey an Tramadol the first day, I carried him outside unleashed, and he promptly chased a squirrel...). It's been hard keeping him in Doggie Jail all week!</p> @Sylvia and Timmy- I agree wi…tag:mycorgi.com,2012-09-14:1150197:Comment:16207252012-09-14T01:27:31.490ZLucy & Ricky (Wendy/Jack )http://mycorgi.com/profile/wsgf822
<p>@Sylvia and Timmy- I agree with all you wrote re. ACL injury. My 2 yo male recently, after waffling re surgery on our part and even our vets!, had TTA surgery to repair a torn ACL.</p>
<p>We are always with our Corgis, but maybe not watching every minute that they're running, frapping and wrestling. So maybe he had a bad footing, who knows? What I do know is that he was a rescue. Purebredi, but probably a "backyard" breeding at best. So he's a bit high in the leg and short on stifle. Lucy,…</p>
<p>@Sylvia and Timmy- I agree with all you wrote re. ACL injury. My 2 yo male recently, after waffling re surgery on our part and even our vets!, had TTA surgery to repair a torn ACL.</p>
<p>We are always with our Corgis, but maybe not watching every minute that they're running, frapping and wrestling. So maybe he had a bad footing, who knows? What I do know is that he was a rescue. Purebredi, but probably a "backyard" breeding at best. So he's a bit high in the leg and short on stifle. Lucy, our 6 yo, is half his size, well-angulated, lots of stifle and seems so grounded––less likely to have this type of injury. (knock wood!) I'm so superstitious. She'll have an ACL injury tonight, at this rate, haha.</p>
<p>All this is purely empirical––just my thoughts after 40 yrs of watching my Corgis. Ricky-Rafa is our first Corgi needing ACL repair and hopefully the last. My only other Corgi requiring back surgery was also high in the leg and maybe lacking stifle. Who knows? I appreciate your post.</p>
<p>Hope you keep posting and all my good wishes!</p> John,
Corgi's are so weird. …tag:mycorgi.com,2012-09-13:1150197:Comment:16209272012-09-13T23:50:30.509ZJennifer Markleyhttp://mycorgi.com/profile/JenniferMarkley
<p>John,</p>
<p>Corgi's are so weird. When Seanna tore her first ACL, she would put absolutely NO weight on that leg the first two weeks after the tear. With her other leg she just tore, you wouldn't have known she really damaged it at all. And this tear was way worse than the first. She would periodically "skip" and hop, but bore weight really without any problem and was tearing around chasing the cows like nothing had happened at all.</p>
<p>The only real consequence of delay is worse…</p>
<p>John,</p>
<p>Corgi's are so weird. When Seanna tore her first ACL, she would put absolutely NO weight on that leg the first two weeks after the tear. With her other leg she just tore, you wouldn't have known she really damaged it at all. And this tear was way worse than the first. She would periodically "skip" and hop, but bore weight really without any problem and was tearing around chasing the cows like nothing had happened at all.</p>
<p>The only real consequence of delay is worse arthritis....</p> Dana, my GUESS is that the li…tag:mycorgi.com,2012-09-13:1150197:Comment:16207042012-09-13T23:20:16.740ZSylvia & Timmyhttp://mycorgi.com/profile/Sylvia
<p>Dana, my GUESS is that the ligament could have been partially torn and caused her some issues. Vets like to take x-rays to rule out any obvious signs such as traumatic injury. Also, most vets will always say that corgis hips are bad or that the dog has dysplasia, when in fact their hips are normal for a corgi. OFA would be the "go to" regarding hip dysplasia.</p>
<p>My surgeon did say that if an ACL injury occurs when the dog is young (2-5 based on breed size) it most often relates to…</p>
<p>Dana, my GUESS is that the ligament could have been partially torn and caused her some issues. Vets like to take x-rays to rule out any obvious signs such as traumatic injury. Also, most vets will always say that corgis hips are bad or that the dog has dysplasia, when in fact their hips are normal for a corgi. OFA would be the "go to" regarding hip dysplasia.</p>
<p>My surgeon did say that if an ACL injury occurs when the dog is young (2-5 based on breed size) it most often relates to conformation of the dog and/or from a traumatic injury. If the dog is older, and most often, the injury is the result of "wear and tear". So speaking for Timmy, I would say since he was very active and an OCD fetcher, the constant wear and tear on his knees probably led to the ACL (by the way in dogs it's called CCL) fully rupturing. Because I waited for a couple of weeks before making the decision on surgery, he ended up damaging his meniscus as well and that had to be partially removed during the surgery.</p>
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<p>As to your question, yes it possibly was a ligament issue at the time, but I'm sure that's not the first thing a vet would say without the diagnostics. Milly may have tightened up that let and not given a positive drawer sign at the time. The delay in diagnosis doesn't alter what's going on now, but increased arthritis in the joint will surely be building up. Most vets will tell you that if you see no improvement after a couple of weeks that a surgical intervention should be explored for the dog's quality of life.</p>
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<p>Please remember that all of these suggestions are from my experience only. Each dog is different and ultimately you have to make the decision that's best for Milly and yourself. If finances are an issue, Care Credit is something to look into and also Corgi Pals (through the Daily Corgi). I wish you didn't have to be going through this. There is never a good time, but perhaps you could both be recovering together. :))</p> Thanks Sylvia. I'm so glad to…tag:mycorgi.com,2012-09-13:1150197:Comment:16205792012-09-13T21:01:55.782ZDana Chttp://mycorgi.com/profile/DanaC
<p>Thanks Sylvia. I'm so glad to hear that Timmy is doing well! Something I did not consider until I read your post and it triggered a memory is that since April, Milly would be a little slower getting up. This only happened if she over exerted herself and I worried that it was her hips. I asked my vet about it at the time and he did a physical check of her legs and hips at that time and said it's nothing to worry about and we will just watch it. Perhaps it has been her knee all…</p>
<p>Thanks Sylvia. I'm so glad to hear that Timmy is doing well! Something I did not consider until I read your post and it triggered a memory is that since April, Milly would be a little slower getting up. This only happened if she over exerted herself and I worried that it was her hips. I asked my vet about it at the time and he did a physical check of her legs and hips at that time and said it's nothing to worry about and we will just watch it. Perhaps it has been her knee all along.</p>
<p>Now I'm wondering if that was an indicator of something else and had he (actually two different vets at the clinic because one was on mat leave) looked at it more closely at the time, we wouldn't be here now. Does that sound like a torn ligament or something else to anyone out there?</p>
<p></p> Timmy had ACL surgery in June…tag:mycorgi.com,2012-09-13:1150197:Comment:16205042012-09-13T19:08:16.057ZSylvia & Timmyhttp://mycorgi.com/profile/Sylvia
<p>Timmy had ACL surgery in June of 2010 at age 7. Just telling you what I've learned about ACL injuries from my experience only! The knee is either stable or not. If it's not, no amount of rest will stabilize the knee and surgery is the way to go. Ligaments do not regenerate or heal, just like in humans, they need replacement or stabilization by altering the bone structure in the joint. Two tests that can determine the stability are the Tibial Thrust and the Drawer test. In some dogs,…</p>
<p>Timmy had ACL surgery in June of 2010 at age 7. Just telling you what I've learned about ACL injuries from my experience only! The knee is either stable or not. If it's not, no amount of rest will stabilize the knee and surgery is the way to go. Ligaments do not regenerate or heal, just like in humans, they need replacement or stabilization by altering the bone structure in the joint. Two tests that can determine the stability are the Tibial Thrust and the Drawer test. In some dogs, they are very sensitive, like us and will tighten up and make the unsedated test difficult. That's probably why the Vet told you about the test being done under sedation.</p>
<p>My two cents, make sure that you talk to an orthopedic specialist regarding possible surgery. There are several surgical options and the orthopedic vet will make a recommendation based on the dog, his conformation, angles of the bones, activity level, and after surgical care. Many people get caught up in which surgical procedure, but the outcomes are the same with all of them. (this is shown in studies done by Veterinary Surgery 2005) Expect a recovery/rehab time of anywhere from 6-10 months depending on how much you need to do to build the muscles back up and how many "oops" moments you have during recovery.</p>
<p>Sad news is that statistics pretty much show that if one goes the other will not be far behind. Some studies actually show the incidence as high as 60-70%. Good news after a successful surgery and long rehab period Timmy is doing fine and completely back to normal corgi antics and zooming. (After 10 months of rehab by a worry wart mom)</p>
<p>If not treated the injury will cause severe arthritis, stiffness, and continuous pain, no different than a human</p>
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<p>FYI on pain indications in dogs, look for reluctance or slow to get up, panting, restlessness, agitation, yelping or whining, obvious signs like holding the leg up, not doing normal things (stair climbing, jumping). Timmy's most obvious sign was restlessness. He just couldn't get comfortable and whining.</p>
<p></p> Oh John, I hope Al is doing b…tag:mycorgi.com,2012-09-13:1150197:Comment:16202782012-09-13T13:52:13.040ZDana Chttp://mycorgi.com/profile/DanaC
<p>Oh John, I hope Al is doing better soon. These little guys can make us second guess every situation. Thanks for offering to ask your breeder. It is good to have someone to trust and I think that is a big part of my issue. I really liked the vet until now when I don't feel that he is handling this situation in the best manner. Ironically, I was in to see my doc yesterday and Milly came up in the conversation (amazing how we can squeeze our fur babies into a talk :)) and he suggested a friend…</p>
<p>Oh John, I hope Al is doing better soon. These little guys can make us second guess every situation. Thanks for offering to ask your breeder. It is good to have someone to trust and I think that is a big part of my issue. I really liked the vet until now when I don't feel that he is handling this situation in the best manner. Ironically, I was in to see my doc yesterday and Milly came up in the conversation (amazing how we can squeeze our fur babies into a talk :)) and he suggested a friend of his, who is a vet and surgeon. I made an appointment to see him but they are booked until next week. At least when I get a diagnosis for her, I will be able to plan accordingly.</p>
<p>I know what you mean about getting careless. Yesterday my mom forgot to close the sliding door when she came over with her dog and Milly got into a frap and play with her cousin before anyone could stop her. My husband jumped in pretty quick but not before a run, she is just bursting with unspent energy! I feel bad for her :( She has learned pretty quick though that she has to wait to be carried up the stairs and stands by them and waits now, lol.</p>
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