Has flipping their pup on their back ever worked for someone? - MyCorgi.com2024-03-28T15:01:09Zhttp://mycorgi.com/forum/topics/has-flipping-their-pup-on-their-back-ever-worked-for-someone?commentId=1150197%3AComment%3A1774647&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=no"and they rule, in fact, by f…tag:mycorgi.com,2013-07-13:1150197:Comment:17746472013-07-13T01:35:51.766ZBethhttp://mycorgi.com/profile/Beth306
<p>"and they rule, in fact, by fear".... I see large groups of dogs interact all the time and this is NOT true. If this is what you see in your dog groups, then you must have a very unsocialized group. The dogs that are scary are dogs that the other dogs treat with a very ginger "That one's a loose cannon" approach. A dog corrects another dog with a loud noise and only moves on to physical correction in extreme circumstances. Pack dynamics are fluid; Jack gets the toys and the food…</p>
<p>"and they rule, in fact, by fear".... I see large groups of dogs interact all the time and this is NOT true. If this is what you see in your dog groups, then you must have a very unsocialized group. The dogs that are scary are dogs that the other dogs treat with a very ginger "That one's a loose cannon" approach. A dog corrects another dog with a loud noise and only moves on to physical correction in extreme circumstances. Pack dynamics are fluid; Jack gets the toys and the food but Maddie gets the laps and is first out the door. Dogs spend way more time giving each other appeasement signals than bossing each other around. Large groups of dogs take great care to do look-aways, blinks, yawns, and tongue-flicks to communicate that they mean no harm. In all the dog interactions I've seen, I have twice had one of mine rolled by another dog. One encounter so terrified her that she ran off and we had trouble catching her. Jack is a natural leader and most dogs defer to him, and he's never once used his teeth on another dog, or physically checked another dog except in play.</p>
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<p>Wolf packs are adult parents and their mostly grown offspring. They don't rule by force. They "rule" because they are the ones who know how to hunt and where to find shelter. When resources are abundant, they sometimes temporarily form much larger packs, but then there is usually more than one breeding pair and the dynamics are much less stable.</p>
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<p>There were interesting stories about the Yellowstone wolves, once they moved in. There was indeed one alpha bitch who ruled the Druid pack with an iron paw; she was aggressive and harassed the other wolves. The end result? They ganged up on her and killed her. </p>
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<p>Look, it's up to everyone how they raise their own dog. But no one should be using NILIF for a young puppy. They lack the maturity and self-control to comply with such strict rules. It is a method that may work for certain dogs in certain homes, but it should NOT be used on a puppy. By both posters' own admission, their dogs only listen if they can physically reach them to correct them. The person who started this thread has a dog who avoids her. That is NOT typical Corgi behavior. Corgis are usually shadow dogs who want to be right by their people all the time.</p>
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<p>If your methods sound severe and the puppy does not want to be near you, things are going terribly wrong and it's kinder to tell someone now while the dog is young than let it persist til the dog gets surrendered to a shelter for biting and ends up euthanized.</p> OMG...seriously? Am I the on…tag:mycorgi.com,2013-07-13:1150197:Comment:17745222013-07-13T01:16:22.903ZJennifer Markleyhttp://mycorgi.com/profile/JenniferMarkley
<p>OMG...seriously? Am I the only one offended by your tone? This is exactly why I am seriously considering leaving this site. WHY do many of you insist on chiding those who don't agree with your methods?? What we do works for us, and for our animals. It is not being harsh and abusive, there is no abuse in this method at all. It is about talking in dog language, NOT human language. Do I need to take my dogs to therapy then when one snaps at another one for playing too hard and stands…</p>
<p>OMG...seriously? Am I the only one offended by your tone? This is exactly why I am seriously considering leaving this site. WHY do many of you insist on chiding those who don't agree with your methods?? What we do works for us, and for our animals. It is not being harsh and abusive, there is no abuse in this method at all. It is about talking in dog language, NOT human language. Do I need to take my dogs to therapy then when one snaps at another one for playing too hard and stands over them with their mouth on their neck until they calm down? Seriously? I would absolutely love to have our dogs get together to meet and see who's is the better of the group, because I guarantee you mine would win. You cannot place human restrictions on a dog, nor can you rationalize with them promising a treat for good behavior. Dogs live in the moment. They look to you to be their leader. You don't see the alpha dog of the pack saying, "Now now, stop that please and I'll give you some ice cream for being a good boy"....They punish when punishment is due- and they rule, in fact, by fear. There is no abuse involved, they don't go around bullying the others into submission, they rule by respect, and that respect is given by the dogs that have learned that they mean business, and that if they don't behave, there are consequences. Don't chide what others do, as long as there is no physical abuse involved, she's not back yard breeding or dumping her dogs off in the country to starve- what do you care? What she's (and I) are doing is perfectly fine, and it works. Learn to not be so judgmental.</p> Were you on the NorCal FB gro…tag:mycorgi.com,2013-07-13:1150197:Comment:17746072013-07-13T00:57:37.663ZJenna, Seth & Reginald the Corgihttp://mycorgi.com/profile/JennaandSethRatcliff
<p>Were you on the NorCal FB group too?? If so, sorry- what I'm saying is repetitive!!</p>
<p>We are currently doing the alpha roll to manage our puppy, who can be very headstrong. It works and you have to be consistent. I feel that Reginald has greater trust in us as his alphas because he knows that we're serious. We don't hurt him at all - we're very calm about it and sometimes he may yelp to challenge us but we keep him down and he learns. As soon as he's calm, we let him back up and he's a…</p>
<p>Were you on the NorCal FB group too?? If so, sorry- what I'm saying is repetitive!!</p>
<p>We are currently doing the alpha roll to manage our puppy, who can be very headstrong. It works and you have to be consistent. I feel that Reginald has greater trust in us as his alphas because he knows that we're serious. We don't hurt him at all - we're very calm about it and sometimes he may yelp to challenge us but we keep him down and he learns. As soon as he's calm, we let him back up and he's a happy pup all over again except this time, he knows that there are boundaries. And trust me, they know how you're feeling. I'm still having a hard time meaning what I say but when I make that conscious energy shift, Reginald knows and he listens.</p> Thanks Anna, He was desperat…tag:mycorgi.com,2013-07-12:1150197:Comment:17746002013-07-12T23:51:42.640ZLois B. Allenhttp://mycorgi.com/profile/LoisBAllen
<p>Thanks Anna, He was desperately lonely and I tried to wait for a corgi rescue or such but was unsuccessful so I adopted Reese who might be a corgi mix from what turned out to be a less desirable rescue facility. I ended up spending time and money on getting her healthy as she had multiple infectious disease problems. But there have been conflict between the dogs as both want to be alpha and Reese apparently caused some problems with Randy. I have tried to provide what I might call sound…</p>
<p>Thanks Anna, He was desperately lonely and I tried to wait for a corgi rescue or such but was unsuccessful so I adopted Reese who might be a corgi mix from what turned out to be a less desirable rescue facility. I ended up spending time and money on getting her healthy as she had multiple infectious disease problems. But there have been conflict between the dogs as both want to be alpha and Reese apparently caused some problems with Randy. I have tried to provide what I might call sound food but have not explored food allergies and may read more. I have not seen skin problems, itching, watery eyes or obvious signs but I do understand that low level toxic reactions and sensitivity problems are important in children I just don't know much. I will try to look into sensitivities in dogs as it might involve the brain and behavior. If you know of a particular reference, I would love to study the info. Thanks for your comments.</p> Lois, I read your detailed po…tag:mycorgi.com,2013-07-12:1150197:Comment:17745152013-07-12T23:32:46.742ZAnna Morellihttp://mycorgi.com/profile/AnnaMorelli
<p>Lois, I read your detailed post with much interest and agree with your statement that one size does not fit all. What you described is a seriously hyperactive dog. You see this in children and, interestingly Fish Oil is beneficial to hyperactive children as well. Your story comes across as nothing but caring and I understand how a hyperactive dog or child can be a challenge and truly test your patience. Structure, patience and love are the way through. Food allergies can be involved as…</p>
<p>Lois, I read your detailed post with much interest and agree with your statement that one size does not fit all. What you described is a seriously hyperactive dog. You see this in children and, interestingly Fish Oil is beneficial to hyperactive children as well. Your story comes across as nothing but caring and I understand how a hyperactive dog or child can be a challenge and truly test your patience. Structure, patience and love are the way through. Food allergies can be involved as well. I wonder if you have looked into that. If you do it right, meaning you don't add to the problem by using detrimental methods, maturing also helps. These dogs over react to stimuli and distractions, so you were wise to wait until 15 months for the PetsMart class. You also describe his hyper focus. I think you assessed the dog correctly and worked with him as best you could, by trial and error, with the intent of helping him succeed, not dominate him! I am glad you did not just see him as "bad" and that you continue to see improvement.</p> ONE SIZE DOESN'T FIT ALL. My…tag:mycorgi.com,2013-07-12:1150197:Comment:17745852013-07-12T20:44:42.991ZLois B. Allenhttp://mycorgi.com/profile/LoisBAllen
<p>ONE SIZE DOESN'T FIT ALL. My boy Randy and I have struggled considerably but he is 2 years and 8 months and things are continually improving. Randy was not only cute but is an alpha male but apparently has a hyper activity disorder. He is also adorable but is the most determined dog that I have ever owned. He used to bite me when there were issues over who was in charge and has been jealous over my talking on the phone and would attack my feet and bite my ankles when I was talking on the…</p>
<p>ONE SIZE DOESN'T FIT ALL. My boy Randy and I have struggled considerably but he is 2 years and 8 months and things are continually improving. Randy was not only cute but is an alpha male but apparently has a hyper activity disorder. He is also adorable but is the most determined dog that I have ever owned. He used to bite me when there were issues over who was in charge and has been jealous over my talking on the phone and would attack my feet and bite my ankles when I was talking on the phone. </p>
<p>He seems to have exhibited behaviors that I have heard from people with hyper active children. If you tried to stop him, he would continue what he was doing 3 - 5 more times before he could stop. He demonstrated his intelligence by becoming house trained within a month and developing really interesting ways and things to play with. I did hold him on his back between my legs when I was sitting in my chair as that was supposed to be a submissive position. A few times, I also held him on his back on the floor when he had trouble stopping something. I also had to stare him down if we were having a confrontation. During his early months, I was online reading everything I could find to help me understand but I did hold him and pet and love him when he would hold still. </p>
<p>I eventually learned that he did not respond to verbal directions such as sit, down and the usual. I had to wait until he 15 months or so to go to Pet Smart for puppy training. He did respond to clicker and treat training and seemed to respond to hand signals better than word commands. He was a terrible tugger and we tried Halti head collars and the Gentle Leader but then I have been dealing with foot and back problems and haven't been unable to continue that type of training. As a part of his not understanding verbal or word commands NO, STOP or COMB, I had to develop what I thought might be an animal type sound that indicated NO. That seemed to get his attention and he would taper down and stop what he was doing. If he got aggressive and started biting, I would hold him still, look him in the eye and growl my most vicious growl. For a separate reason (& for health), I started giving the dogs fish oil and found that with it and age (maturity) he started settling down and he continues to improve. After he learned sit, down and stay (to some extent) using hand signals, he has learned the words that go with the commands and actually stops and listens to me at least part of the time now. We have had a wild time at times but do have a loving relationship.</p>
<p>With most dogs, it may be possible to follow certain general training guidelines but sometimes, you may have to fly by the seat of your pants and do the best you can.</p> Beth, I had the dentist exper…tag:mycorgi.com,2013-07-12:1150197:Comment:17743262013-07-12T16:48:57.000ZAnna Morellihttp://mycorgi.com/profile/AnnaMorelli
<p>Beth, I had the dentist experience and it took 30 yrs and many dentists to get over it. It was not until I found someone who understood how to deal with that fear that I began the slow road of releasing it. Good analogy.</p>
<p>Beth, I had the dentist experience and it took 30 yrs and many dentists to get over it. It was not until I found someone who understood how to deal with that fear that I began the slow road of releasing it. Good analogy.</p> I wanted to make a point abou…tag:mycorgi.com,2013-07-12:1150197:Comment:17744782013-07-12T16:08:14.951ZBethhttp://mycorgi.com/profile/Beth306
I wanted to make a point about training a dog who does not like being handled:<br />
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If you went to the dentist and squirmed, and the dentist responded by holding you down in the chair until you "submitted", how would you feel about that dentist?<br />
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The idea that you should forcibly hold a scared or frustrated dog til he submits is so widespread, and I don't know where it started. Believing the hype, I tried this with Jack when he was a puppy who did not like being handled, and it absolutely…
I wanted to make a point about training a dog who does not like being handled:<br />
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If you went to the dentist and squirmed, and the dentist responded by holding you down in the chair until you "submitted", how would you feel about that dentist?<br />
<br />
The idea that you should forcibly hold a scared or frustrated dog til he submits is so widespread, and I don't know where it started. Believing the hype, I tried this with Jack when he was a puppy who did not like being handled, and it absolutely backfired.<br />
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You get the dog used to it by associating it with things it likes. So for a dog who likes cuddles, handling paws while you cuddle it makes sense.<br />
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But for a dog who hates being on your lap, you are then associating one thing it hates (being on the lap) with another it equally hates (having its paws touched). The result? It hates both even more, and if you persist it comes to see you as the thing that causes what the dog hates, and so the dog avoids you all together.<br />
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The better approach is to associate something the dog doesn't like (being touched) with something it likes (eating peanut butter, or playing tug). And you start with the minimal amount of touch he'll tolerate, and work up from there. And you always mix short, tolerable touch sessions in with the longer training ones.<br />
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So it might look like this: present spoon with peanut butter, let dog lick, briefly touch a paw while he continues to lick and not try again for 3 days.<br />
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Play tug, pick up a paw and put it down, continue tug, pick up a paw again and continue tug, and end it/<br />
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Bring out the pb, don't touch the paws and let the dog lick, and be done.<br />
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Bring out the pb two days later, pick up paws twice, let the dog go.<br />
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Three days later, go back to picking up the paw just once.<br />
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And so on.<br />
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Forcing your dog to do something he hates til he submits to it helps neither the dog nor your relationship, and should only be done in emergencies. @ SARAH, Thanks for posting t…tag:mycorgi.com,2013-07-12:1150197:Comment:17743162013-07-12T15:44:59.295ZAnna Morellihttp://mycorgi.com/profile/AnnaMorelli
<p>@ SARAH, Thanks for posting this excellent article. David Meech is someone I know personally and he is a true authority in wolf behavior in the wild. The origin of the Alpha roll technique in dog training, however, does not originate with Cesar Millan, but with the book "How To Be Your Dog's Best Friend", written by the Monks of New Skeet in 1978</p>
<p>This original edition ( now completely revised, so I don't know what changes may have been made in it ) quickly became a classic among dog…</p>
<p>@ SARAH, Thanks for posting this excellent article. David Meech is someone I know personally and he is a true authority in wolf behavior in the wild. The origin of the Alpha roll technique in dog training, however, does not originate with Cesar Millan, but with the book "How To Be Your Dog's Best Friend", written by the Monks of New Skeet in 1978</p>
<p>This original edition ( now completely revised, so I don't know what changes may have been made in it ) quickly became a classic among dog owners and trainers, who totally misused the concept, so it ended up doing a lot of damage, as I wrote in my first reply to Nina's question. The methods in this book were geared to a large group of German Shepherds that lived with the Monks, who had decided to breed dogs. The book made many good points, but there have been great strides in the understanding of dog behavior since 1978 when Science still held that animals did not possess intelligence, only instincts. The Monks, being Roman Catholics, also believed only humans have souls and animals were just part of a a world put here for the benefit and use of mankind. Nature was to be ruled, rather than something we were an integral part of. I was raised Roman Catholic and I remember having many arguments with the good Nuns as a child and growing up....</p> Wolf packs are mostly family…tag:mycorgi.com,2013-07-12:1150197:Comment:17744642013-07-12T14:21:39.112ZBethhttp://mycorgi.com/profile/Beth306
Wolf packs are mostly family units. The "alphas" are the parents and the "subordinates" are juveniles and young adults, who will one day soon leave to form their own pack where THEY are the "alphas."
Wolf packs are mostly family units. The "alphas" are the parents and the "subordinates" are juveniles and young adults, who will one day soon leave to form their own pack where THEY are the "alphas."