Comment

Comment by JW on May 28, 2008 at 11:10am

This is truly great - thanks for all of your input! I know much more now and love seeing both sides of the argument.

Comment by CorgiLove on May 28, 2008 at 1:33am

I personally think that the docking ban is really unnecessary. While I agree that a companion/pet dog doesn't necessarily need it's tail docked, I also think that if one wishes to have it docked, it shouldn't be impossible.

It really isn't such a huge surgery on a pup, as a matter of fact it's much less painful and invasive than a spay/neuter, something we promote to be done to put companion/pet dogs.

Just on the subject of tails in general, think about Great Danes - they have enormous tails that they wag happily like any other dog. The standard actually requires the tail to be there, but I have met so many Danes whose tails have been injured many times over and often had to be removed, all simply because the dogs don't think much about banging that whip of a tail on anything and everything.

So while a Dane has a tail by standard, and injuries are often unavoidable, other big dogs like Dobermans, Rottweilers, Weimaraners, various Pointers have it docked by standard. Enter the docking ban, and all these breeds are now suffering injured tails and often numerous painful surgeries/recovery instead of having a tiny little snip at the age of 3 days or younger. If I were them, I'd definitely pick the latter, but now they have no choice but to hurt that tail of theirs and suffer... talk about "animal rights"

Comment by Sam on May 27, 2008 at 10:00pm

Breeding for bob tails is in the works for some folks. Sadly when connecting specific genes for a quality often times adverse results also appear. I think it would be difficult for one to be certain whether a dog was born with a bob tail or it was docked. You will see many lengths in corgi tails. This is due to the knowledge of the one doing the procedure. True corgi fanciers have tails docked quite close to the body with little to no presence of a stub.

Comment by Arang&Mark on May 27, 2008 at 7:17pm

I hope no one takes offense to this, but I think it is hard for anyone with extremist values in anything, conservative, liberal, animal rights, gay rights, whatever, to be as open-minded as they could be. This is why doctors who were just doing their jobs trying to help at abortion clinics got hurt by people who are pro-life (kind of ironic) and paint is being thrown on people who wear fur. I dont think anythign is strictly black or white, but large patches of grey spectrum.

Comment by Arang&Mark on May 27, 2008 at 7:14pm

I also believe in maintaining breed standards...especially for ones being bred.

Comment by Arang&Mark on May 27, 2008 at 7:11pm

I thought some corgis were currently being breed without tails, although i know of others with tails that do get docked by breeders. I believe scout doesnt have a docked tail. I tried to find traces of docking because i have seen other docked dogs and it is fairly obvious. I may have been misinformed.

Comment by Sam on May 27, 2008 at 7:08pm

While I choose not to get involved in the Animal Rights portion of this conversation you do ask a good question. Tail docking of many dogs was done for a variety of reasons. Many hunting dogs were docked to prevent injury while hunting in the woods. Dewclaws are also removed from many breeds when very young. If you have ever had to deal with a torn dew claw then you will know why. It is also in the standard of many breeds. Many will also go on to say that spaying/neutering is an unnecessary surgery. Well I dont think so. One only need to visit their local shelter, look through pet finder or check any rescue group to see that there are many unwanted dogs that are looking for homes. Regarding breeders in our country that do not dock tails I have to say that it is likely this is a person that has little interest in breeding to the current standard. While you may agree or disagree with the standard currently it does say "tail docked". My choice would not be to purchase a pup from one that doesn't care to breed to the standard. I suspect many other sacrifices in quality would be made as well.

Comment by Niki on May 27, 2008 at 6:01pm

thank you for all the interesting information

Comment by Charlie on May 27, 2008 at 5:28pm

Sorry. I'm sure I addressed the question about how tail docking bans could lead to the extinction of specific breeds. Say you are a rancher with sheep and cattle. You have found a preference to own Border Collies (undocked tail), Australian Shepherds (docked tail), and Pembroke Corgis (docked tail) as your working herding dogs. A tail docking ban comes into effect. Shortly thereafter you find that your hard-working Australian Shepherds and Pembrokes are "out of service" for two or three weeks at a time from having their tails bitten or trampled. The Border Collies are fine. Your ranch can't run if your dogs aren't working so you quit buying dogs with improper tails for herding. You buy more Border Collies, or try out Cardigans and some other herding breed with a "good herding tail".

Comment by Charlie on May 27, 2008 at 5:09pm

There is a distinction between Animal Rights and Animal Welfare.

Animal Rights groups love animals so much that they do not believe that one mammal (namely human) has any right to interfere with the life of any other mammal. We should not own domestic pets for pleasure. (They compare the AKC dog registry to the Ku Klux Klan racist group.) We should not kill one lab rat, even if it might cure Cancer or AIDS. We should not subject cattle, chickens, or fish to becoming "dinner" (i.e. we should all be vegetarian). The Animal Rights groups are not trying to "save" animals, as much as "liberate" them from any human interference or control. They are extreme, well-organized, well-funded and are behind most of the current animal legislation. They have borrowed a lot of language from the Animal Welfare groups that sounds like they are "saving animals" on the surface, but yes, their end-game it to take animals away from humans. If they have their way, most domestic animals we know today will go the way of the dinosaur.

Animal Welfare Groups believe that humans do have the right to own animals and use them for human enjoyment (pets), and sustinance (livestock). The Welfare Groups do believe in humane treatment of animals, and are against abuse and neglect of the creatures we care for. There are enough laws on the books today to provide for the humane and ethical treatment of animals, which simply need to be enforced. Many of the new "pet cruelty" and "pet overpopulation" laws are just slowly chipping away at our rights to own animals.

On page two of the forums here, there is a thread on docking. I've repeated myself here a bit, but there is more info on that thread (regarding docking and the AR agenda) if you're interested.

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