Need some real advice on bladder stones.
So we've spent nearly 700 dollars on the vet so far and we're both near the end of our ropes in terms of knowing what we're supposed to do with our puppy. Apollo just isn't getting any better. We've had to completely give up on potty training and drop out out of puppy classes all together now because of this problem. We took him in for another vet visit today and now the vet thinks instead of a simple bladder infection he has urinary calculi but apparently now instead of the crystals being formed by calcium they are being caused by an overabundance of magnesium ammonium phosphate. The vet indicated she thought the recent change in his urinary frequency was brought on by his diet.(The first month he was doing INCREDIBLY well on potty training and was able to be crated for like 4-5 hours before having an accident so this is a recent behavior change) We've been feeding him Canidae all life stages grain free, which as far as I've heard from other people is a good choice for this breed. However the vet wants us to try switching him to a urinary problem based dog-food but she couldn't even offer a suggestion as to what we'd be looking for... Apparently she's going to call Canidae and see what they suggest tomorrow for us and give us a call afterwards. She suggested that he may need to go on a specialized diet for the rest of his life if that's what they suggest. The vet also explained to us that while he definitely has crystals in his urine she was unsure as to whether or not they have formed stones yet. (No idea why they didn't do an x-ray) So essentially all she did was send us home with more amoxicillin to rule out any more bacterial infections and then told us to try putting vinegar into the puppy's water bowl until she finds out about this specialized diet.We've pretty much tried everything we can think of though, over the last 3 weeks, we've given him as much water as he his heart desires, we've taken him outside like once an hour and he still can't hold himself at all. The poor thing has had probably 50 baths in the last 24 hours just because he pees all over himself. Worse his behavior is starting to influence our other dog as she's seeing him get away with peeing all over the floor.
So I'm curious to know if anyone else has had this problem with their dog and could offer some real advice :) I guess we have a few basic questions:
What food should we be feeding him?
Our friends who have dogs who have suffered this problem and done the special diet thing in the past have all still went on to require the removal surgery, will switching the food even work/help?
Would it be possible to switch to just regular grain based Canidae before switching him to some medication diet?
And I suppose the most important question is, will he ever be crate/potty trainable? (We live in an apartment and both work so we absolutely cannot take him outside every hour on the hour for the rest of his life)
Lastly, should we try contacting the breeder? He's only about 13 weeks old and has a 1 year health guarantee but realistically we don't want another puppy or our money back, we just want what every pet owner wants, a happy, healthy, trainable dog.
So I'm curious to know if anyone else has had this problem with their dog and could offer some real advice :) I guess we have a few basic questions:
What food should we be feeding him?
Our friends who have dogs who have suffered this problem and done the special diet thing in the past have all still went on to require the removal surgery, will switching the food even work/help?
Would it be possible to switch to just regular grain based Canidae before switching him to some medication diet?
And I suppose the most important question is, will he ever be crate/potty trainable? (We live in an apartment and both work so we absolutely cannot take him outside every hour on the hour for the rest of his life)
Lastly, should we try contacting the breeder? He's only about 13 weeks old and has a 1 year health guarantee but realistically we don't want another puppy or our money back, we just want what every pet owner wants, a happy, healthy, trainable dog.
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Comment by MagnoliaFly on November 30, 2010 at 2:08pm
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I just saw this!
My 4 year old Pem Bernie went through Bladder surgery earlier this year. A stonethe size of a large marble was removed. Following that, she nearly died from some sort of an infection and the the Hills Science Diet prescription food that was formulated to keep the crystals from forming didn't work. It was a frustrating few months while I figured out what to do.
I ended up seeking the help of a canine nutritionist that formulated a raw diet for Bernie. Nothing else worked. This did. The vet was even baffled as to how to solve the problem when the normal things didn't treat the issue.
I highly recommend contacting her. I would also get your dog x-rayed to make sure stones aren't already in the bladder. With a male dog a stone in the bladder can be life threatening since they are unable to pass them with their small urethreas.
I would also consider taking the dog to a local veterinary college and seeing a urologist specialist if nothing else works. This is my next course of action if crystals return.
I'm having to get urinalysis tests every 8 weeks or so just to make sure everything is ok. I may have to do this the rest of her life.
One more reason why pet insurance is a good idea.
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Comment by Christine on September 22, 2010 at 6:38pm
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@Sam
Thanks so much for that article and your explanation. It's shed a lot of light on her reasoning. Thanks again for being so helpful!
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Comment by Sam Tsang on September 22, 2010 at 6:17pm
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This article will explain M.A.P Struvite stone better than I can :)
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Hi Christine, the reason why your vet recommend Puppy-chow over Candidae for now is because of the content. Print the ingredient page, compare the two and you'll have a better understanding.
As you can see, the protein, calcium and phostate level in Canidae is higher than Puppy-Chow, normally those are good for the average dog, but a Magnesium ammonium phosphate (Struvite) stone dissolution diets have a relatively low content of high-value protein (15–20%), reduced calcium, magnesium, and phosphorus, and are supplemented with sodium chloride to promote fluid intake. The moderate amounts of protein reduce the production of urea in the liver and thereby the amount of urea in the kidney interstitium and in the urine. There is therefore less urea for bacterial urease.
Talk to your vet again and see if she can recommend other brands with similar nutritional content with better ingredients. Remember a high protein / mineral diet is not for every dog. Your vet is trying to save you money by not putting Apollo on Rx food, nor does she think is necessary at this time, so the situation is not as severe and only temporary, I would take it as good news.
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:::Update::: So our vet called back after talking to Canidae and she thinks we should just switch him to good ole fashion puppy-chow... Not too sure how that's gonna fix his problem =x
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Thanks for all the advice :) Definitely have a few more things to investigate now. You all have been incredibly helpful though! As a new dog owner going into the vet's office lately has been a bit overwhelming as we've just kinda sat there and smiled and nodded at what tests were done because we had no idea what we should be requesting test-wise. But obviously there's still a lot more we need to have looked at before making a rash decision.
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Hi Christine, I'm sorry to hear what you're going through. I used to be a PA and worked with a human urologist on a daily basis, your vet may not be knowledgable in the diet area, but she is trying to cater to your brand and talk to the expert there, so don't lose confidence just yet.
There are many types of kidney stones. Magnesium ammonium phosphate is also known as "Struvite" stone, kidney stones occur when there's not enough water to flush out the mineral. In your case, keeping Apollo clear of UTI infections, you are much less likely to see stones. The bacteria provide an essential "building block" for the stone formations.
As far as diet goes, I guess your vet will mostly likely prescribe her with Royal Cannin Urinary SO , read my comments in that old thread, you may also want to talk to Lynne for more recent update. Remember diet is not a "one size fit all", every corgi / human is different, a high protein no grain diet is not for all dogs, especially those who are prone to urinary problem. Your goal right now is getting Apollo back to health, you can think about long term food when you get there. In the mean time, stick with vegetable treats.
As far as potty training goes, keep him on a diaper for now. When you have UTI / crystal / stones, it hurts and irritate your urinary tract, causing you to urinate more. The best thing to do is increase the water intake and keep it free from bacteria, there are 3 things you can try.
1. Pure cranberry juice with no sugar / HFCS high fructose corn syrup, yes it is the expensive kind that have a tart taste. If he likes it, let him have as much as he wants, it'll prevent the bacteria from sticking to the urinary tract. Don't feed him the sugar type, it'll defeat the purpose.
2. Cranberry capsule, if he don't like the juice and make sure he drinks plenty of water to work.
3. Pure Lemon juice concentrate (no sugar, just juice), it is very effective with this type of stone. It'll smooth out the sharp edges, even dissolve or reduce stone size in some cases. The down side is acidity, so you may want to mix in some water as well.
That's all I can think of for now, message me directly if you have any questions. I don't keep up with all discussions :)
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Comment by Betts on September 22, 2010 at 8:52am
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He definitely needs chemistries to look at his kidney function. If kidneys aren't working as well as they should, dogs instinctively know that they have to drink more to help flush out impurities. If his bladder is always full, there's no way he can hold it at his young age. If he has a kidney problem, the one thing you don't want to do is cut the availability of water right now. Even if it means diapers or cleaning up urine, lack of water in diabetes insipidus can be a serious problem. It's so frustrating and scary to not know what's wrong with our little ones. And sometimes vets don't think of the big picture when dealing with puppies, because most puppies don't have problems like these. Hoping good things for your little guy.
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@Julia Thanks so much for your advice :) I'll go back and read your thread though!
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@Jane,
Yeah we're gonna leave Artemis on the food she's on now since she has no problems. She's 100% completely healthy and her potty issue was definitely behavioral so don't worry ^_^ It was actually kinda cute because after she did it when we went to clean up her mess she sorta hid behind the chair like, "I know I did something bad mom, but he did it first!!!"
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