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Comment by Mariana on November 6, 2008 at 1:09pm

*clears throat*

I think I'll skip a book written by a guy that uses a shock collar on his dog. Thanks anyway.

But that's alright. I realize now that what you read about the book offended you. And thank you for agreeing to disagree. I think we're all exhausted of this back-and-forth. We all want what's best for our dogs. We just differ. And I'll need all the luck I can get with the herding. It's very expensive.

Comment by MagnoliaFly on November 6, 2008 at 1:05pm

I fail to see where I snapped at you.

Mariana I hope you enjoy life with your dog with whatever method you choose (or not) to train her! Good luck herding.

Comment by Mariana on November 6, 2008 at 12:58pm

Wait a second. I'm not trying to be snarky. I responded to MagnoliaFly's original blog post with what I thought to be an innocuous comment, and she snapped at me because of the book I recommended. Then I felt the need to defend myself, which I am still doing. I've been getting these very condescending responses from the both of you, which I don't appreciate. So of course I'm starting to feel a little grated and my politeness might slip a little.

I respect where you're coming from in terms of science and research. I didn't say observation was the same as studies. I was only saying that there is value is what I've observed, and I think it's reductive to put no value in observation and to put real life in the shadow of recent research, to which I have indeed been paying attention. If you've been to med school, then you have an advantage on me in terms of the depth of study. But I still insist that it's insular to discount life experience and observation. Such discounting in the past has led to many errors in the world of science.

I do have an open mind, and I think my previous post displays such. Just because I refuse to say I like clickers doesn't mean I'm closed-minded. In fact, I'm very explorative. I use to swear by obedience training (now I have no interest in it); then I swore by Cesar Millan (now I disagree with him in many ways); now I swear by my own individual philosophy. I've watched clicker training videos and even considered getting one once upon a time. And I acknowledged in an earlier post that I recognize and respect the proven effectiveness of clicker training. If I were closed-minded I wouldn't be exploring this issue the way I am and we certainly wouldn't be having this interesting discussion.

And you're right, I am in the very early stages of learning. It's a very exciting time. But the philosophy I have developed is simply taking a different direction than yours.

Comment by Mariana on November 6, 2008 at 10:58am

Oh come on, I would never let my dog run out in traffic just because I don't like clicker training. This is starting to get ridiculous. And I would never let my dog show agression with children or other people. She's been very well socialized and especially loves children. She's also been socialized with dogs, and when she's around other dogs I'm very vigilant. I wouldn't let her get mauled by an aggressive dog as you're implying I would. I am very responsible with Ofelia out in public. And she's great on a leash and she's great out and about. I mentioned before that she has discipline. And yes, she has boundaries. At every point during the day safety is a concern for my dog. Thank you for asking.

I'm finally realizing that I've offended you by implying that clicker-trained dogs are robotic. I apologize for the offense. But I'm being as calm as I can here and I'm not implying that you're harming your dogs. I told you in a previous post that I respect your opinion. And I'd appreciate the same respect.

Therapy work is great. And you must not have read when I mentioned in an earlier post that my opinion about working dogs is entirely different - that they do need controlled training. I'm talking about my dog in my home. Not therapy dogs, not working dogs, not farm dogs, not hobby dogs, not show dogs, etc. etc. I will be putting Ofelia into herding soon. There, she will be under my strict control as a herding dog.


Aloha:

I didn't realize I had to be in studies to observe mothers and their puppies. Also, I wrote in an earlier post that the wolf "alpha" struggle doesn't hold.

I believe dogs can reason, including reasoning flexible rank. A mother always outranks a child. And saying so doesn't complicate anything. I'm not going to fetch the books I've read and turn this into a sophomoric "I know more than you" conversation, which is the last place I want it to turn. I've read Griffin, Moussaieff, Wynne, LeDoux - and I've learned a lot from my years of studying dogs just because I love them. Aside from studies and science, I hold high regard for the simple, down-to-earth case study/observation. I don't just have my head buried in books (especially not now after 4 numbing years of college) - I like to observe and make my own inferences through what I see. If you think I'm wrong in my conclusions, I respect that; and I respectfully state that I think you're being reductive.

Anyone and Everyone:

I don't like clicker training. If you want to use clickers in training your dog, I have no problem with that and I said so before. It doesn't bother me. Ofelia knows how to sit, come, stay, drop something, as well as other commands throughout the house and outside. I didn't use a clicker to train her because I don't like them. Sometimes it frustrates me if she doesn't listen to a command - something it amuses me. This is what I've been trying to say the entire time. I don't care that she follows my commands all the time, so therefore I won't be doing clicker training or even obedience training with her.

And please do us all a favor and don't try to convince me otherwise. We're all allowed our opinions. I respect yours. I apologize if I've seemed crass at all in my observations - it was not my intention to offend, only to defend my opinion.

And if, in this ridiculously letigious society, someone wants to sue me for my dog who sometimes barks in public, then I say bring it on.

Comment by MagnoliaFly on November 6, 2008 at 7:21am

Mariana I'm curious, at what point do you decide safety is a concern for your dog? Being a free spirit has extreme safety concerns for all canine companions. There is traffic to contend with, aggressive dogs, people that are scared of dogs, small children - at what point do you decide to take charge, if ever? The dogs certainly don't care about getting hit by a car because they aren't aware of the danger. It is our responsibility to train them to be safe out in public and have manners suitable for all situations.

In the current state of lawsuit-happy society, we're seeing more and more people getting citations and sued over dogs that just barked at someone and they considered it aggressive. I'd rather my dog follow my commands out in public and be safe and predictable around people than possibly build up a case for euthanasia because I wanted her to be a "free spirit" and do what she wanted.

I'm training a dog to be used for therapy work right now. He has to be safe and predictable in a number of strange situations. By no means am I going to force him to do therapy work if he is stressed or fearful but it takes some training to get him familiar with some of the strange objects (walkers, canes, wheelchairs) he will encounter during therapy work. He loves working with people and children and it is a huge positive reinforcement to him. I think therapy work is very important to not only benefit my canine companion but the humans I'll be working with. I cannot go in there letting him do as he wishes but if he already has good manners and knows what is acceptable and what is not I won't have to worry about my dog doing something I can possibly get sued for.

Comment by Mariana on November 5, 2008 at 10:20pm

The difference of opinions about dogs and rank reasoning is a whole other long dicussion. There are as many studies that conclude that dogs can reason rank as there are studies that conclude that dogs can't reason rank. My experience, my observations, and the literature that I have read have led me to believe the former; yours have led you to believe the latter.

But tell me, if dogs can't reason rank, how does a mother discipline its puppy, and how is that discipline in any way effective if the mother doesn't outrank the puppy?

And I'm not saying my dog does whatever she wants all the time - of course there's discipline. But when she makes a decision on her own, I don't restrict her actions (unless they would cause her harm). I try not to retard her individuality by repressing her instinct to make a decision on her own.

Comment by Mariana on November 5, 2008 at 8:24pm

I'm all for exercises in which Ofelia has to think it out and work it out using her own mental capacities, just so long as I'm not telling her what to do. I'd rather she direct herself to a conclusion even if it's not the conclusion I had in mind. For example: say I want Ofelia to fetch the bell and bring it back to me. She fetches and brings it back and I tell her she's done well (my desired conclusion). That's great. But if she fetches and doesn't bring the ball back (not my desired conclusion), it doesn't bother me. And as far as my experience goes, trainers tend to want the dog to reach the conclusion the human desires without considering whether the dog even cares about the ball or even cares about coming when called or even cares about heeling during a walk.

But I'm definitely all for training that encourages the dog's volition and the dog's outside-the-box reasoning capabilities. And that's one thing that's also controversial about Cesar Millan. I think his pack leader practices are too strict and not flexible enough. I don't think a "pack" has one leader who controls the other pack member's actions every hour of the day all days of the dog's life. I understand that Millan wants his dogs to be 100% obedient, but I think that's a strain on the dog as well as the dog/owner relationship.

Comment by MagnoliaFly on November 5, 2008 at 8:13pm

Have you ever seen any shaping exercises? These training exercises require the dog to think and work out what the trainer's eventual goal is. Dogs have to think outside of the box and it is far from mechanical. Clicker training in general is done with the goal to have a creative dog try all sorts of things to get the click. Far from mechanical.

Comment by Mariana on November 5, 2008 at 8:01pm

Oh no, I'm not saying that a dog can't be trained correctly with a clicker. Of course they can. It's been proven. I just don't like creating mechanical reactions like that. I'd rather have a more free-thinking pet than a religiously obedient and controlled one. I guess that's the key word for me: control. I don't like having that much control over my dog. It's exciting to me to watch her making her own decisions.

When it comes to field dogs and other working dogs, I have an entirely different opinion. I think field dogs and working dogs need be trained with markers and other proven methods - clickers included. But as far as my pet at home, I don't like the clicker. And you're right, Skinner is a far cry from today's clicker training. But I agree with his initial assessment.

I believe that dogs can reason. There's research out there that says they can't, and there is also research that says they can. It's all very contradictory and still controversial. And wolves in the wild do think in terms of rank. No, rank isn't the dominating factor in a healthy pack. No, a healthy pack does not consist of one all-saying alpha wolf and its subservients. But there is a flexible ranking system. And in my experience domestic dogs also understand flexible ranking systems.

I suppose, in summation, that many would disagree with my opinion about the clicker. But I'm sticking with it. And just so there's no misunderstanding, I do know that clicker training is effective, proven, and gentle. I just don't like it myself.

Comment by Mariana on November 5, 2008 at 7:18pm

The man who invented clicker training- B.F. Skinner - felt that dogs responded to the clickers in a purely mechanical fashion, concluding that dogs were automatons in their responses. From what I've observed, I would agree. Dogs look like robots to me when they're responding to clickers. I would rather communicate with my dog using my voice and my hands than a clicker. I also feel that clickers are very unnatural.

Shock collars are stern conditioning. I don't myself condone them, but they don't make me angry. Clickers on the other hand are gentle conditioning. But I don't like too much conditioning because I feel that it's basically limiting your dog's behavior, which in turn limits the dog's personality - in my opinion and experience. I think dogs are very capable of reasoning and experiencing a range of emotions, and at the risk of saying more than I need to I don't think animals who can reason should be treated like they can't - which is what I believe a clicker does.

That having been said, people using clickers doesn't bother me. Everyone communicates differently with their dogs - and if John Doe likes the clicker, I wouldn't object to him using it. And I certainly wouldn't view him or his dog in a lesser light. I just don't like them myself.

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