Question for all you Breeders and Corgi-philes
This may seem like a silly question, but here goes...
Two of our corgis - Moira and Rudy - seem to meet breed standard pretty well: full coat, nice top line, foxy face and ears. The other rescues not so much. The corgis you find around here (and most are backyard breeders) have a different coat and look. The faces are longer-snouted and the coat harsh and not so full. It's still obvious that they're corgis, but different. Does that make sense? Okay let's see if I can put it in pictures...
This is Maddie. She and Dundee both came from a puppy mill breeder in North Alabama. And it's a BIG kennel.
And this is Rudy. Notice the difference in appearance.
From what I read of the breed standard, Rudy would be more in line with those standards. (Of course, Rudy was bred with a Welsh bitch and an English sire. So I expect him to be closer to actual standards.)
Anyhow, any thoughts on how this occurs? And if the difference truly is the breeding, how do we go about trying to stop backyard breeders?
Two of our corgis - Moira and Rudy - seem to meet breed standard pretty well: full coat, nice top line, foxy face and ears. The other rescues not so much. The corgis you find around here (and most are backyard breeders) have a different coat and look. The faces are longer-snouted and the coat harsh and not so full. It's still obvious that they're corgis, but different. Does that make sense? Okay let's see if I can put it in pictures...
This is Maddie. She and Dundee both came from a puppy mill breeder in North Alabama. And it's a BIG kennel.
And this is Rudy. Notice the difference in appearance.
From what I read of the breed standard, Rudy would be more in line with those standards. (Of course, Rudy was bred with a Welsh bitch and an English sire. So I expect him to be closer to actual standards.)
Anyhow, any thoughts on how this occurs? And if the difference truly is the breeding, how do we go about trying to stop backyard breeders?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Sam on
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The difference is merely genetics. Easy to see in people that often siblings look much different. Regarding stopping BYB this opens a huge can of worms in every direction. Everyone has a different idea of what constitutes a BYB. Truly there is no way that breeders of show dogs would produce the amount of dogs that the american public desires. The market is there and people will take their opportunity for financial gain.
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Permalink Reply by Heather on
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Well, first of all, don't buy dogs whose parents are not champion show dogs, and make sure to research the lineage. My corgi's sire and dam are both champion show dogs. This helps to guarantee the quality of the breed. A lot of people breed their corgis even when they are physically flawed. This is not good, and it is the reason why so many purebred dogs have genetic diseases. Responsible breeders normally only allow limited AKC registration on their pups in order to control the breeding. Limited registration means that they are purebred and can compete in obedience trials and such, but cannot compete in conformation or have any puppies registered with the AKC.
Breeders sometimes let all the pups have full AKC registration just so they can charge more for the puppy.
Maddie looks a lot like a bitch after having puppies. The hormones make their fur fall out, and they look like this. But if she looks like this all the time, then she may have another breed somewhere inside her. Since she is from a puppy mill, it's likely that she isn't a purebred.
Also, there is a difference in the two types of corgi. The cardigans have shorter coats.
I don't think you can really "stop" backyard breeders. You can only do your own part, by neutering your own dog if he or she is clearly not a quality corgi. My own corgi was bred in his breeder's yard. But it's a large yard, and the breeder shows and breeds both pembroke welsh corgis and Brittany spaniels. She only breeds her champion dogs with other champions. And only offers her pups with limited registration unless she thinks they are champion show quality. So, some people may call her a backyard breeder, but she really cares about the breed and her dogs.
A lot of people just want a corgi and they don't care if it is a champion quality dog or not. But the breed standard exists for a reason, and it would be nice if people didn't dilute it.
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Permalink Reply by Lisa on
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There is no corolation between a dog's AKC championship and genetic diseases. Perhaps a better statement would have been "don't buy a dog thats sire and dam have not been genetically tested."
Some of the top winning PWCs of all time didn't have both their sire and dam as champions, and furthermore, other Champion Corgis's owners or beeders don't do genetic testing.... I have seen it first hand.
My corgi is a AKC champion, and he has numerous titles as well and i have bred him to non-champion bitches. It isn't as black and white as a good dog also being a champion, there are a lot of factors involved in a dog receiving their championship.
It personally took me 5 years to get a AKC championship on my dog. It wasn't because he didn't fit the standard to a T, it was because he was a black headed tri, he didn't have a professional handler, and there is a lot of room for personal oppinions and speculation in the breed standard. What seems like a perfect corgi to one judge doesn't mean it is a perfect corgi to another.
At one show on the first day i would get Best of Breed then place in group, the next day i would be dead last in my class. Like i said, it is all a matter of personal oppinion.
As far as the breed standard. Yes, it is there for a reason but it has also changed EMENSELY over the years. Look at the top winning corgis of the 1920s and compare them to the top winners in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. It is really quite remarkable.
There is a lot more difference between the Cardi and the Pem. First off, their origins are totally TOTALLY different, they just started looking the same when they were started to be interbred.
Why is it that Pem's have "longer" coats as you said? Well, one is genetics, The pem came down from the Noregian Elkhound and other spitz type dogs, and they have an insanely dense coat, it makes corgis coats look like a labs. Then from the elkhound came the swedish valhund, and then we arrive with the corgi.
But i believe the biggest reason that the corgis have such a different coat type from the cardi is purely for modern showing fashion purposes. Any more the corgis in the show ring have nearly "open coats" wich is really a faux pas as far as the standard is concerned. But like many other breeds in the US, people have been breeding for more bone, and more hair. This coat is COMPLETELY INCORRECT on a corgi, yet we see that it continues to win in many cases, THUS more and more people breed for it instead of breeding for what is a correct type.
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Responsible breeders do genetic testing. Did you genetically test your champion corgi and their partners before they were bred? I feel that most non-show owners don't normally do this. So, to clarify my thoughts, I am saying that breeders who show and have champion dogs tend to be the more responsbile breeders than just a person who happened to own a purebred corgi. The serious breeders and competitors are the breeders who will do the genetic testing. Did you only offer limited registration on your pups? It's common knowledge that the cardigan and the pembroke have totally different origins. And it is true that it all depends on the judges that day. The breeders I know are all responsible enough to not breed non-champion corgis (since the conformation title is somewhat a testament to the physical superiority of the dog). Dogs with hip dysplasia would not be champions as it would affect their gait. Would you breed a flawed dog just for the money?
It's true that nowadays you see a lot more "fluffies" out there, which is certainly cute, but not functional for a working herding dog.
I have nothing against rescuing an abused and abandoned corgi (I don't get how people can abuse or abandon them in the first place), but my message to everyone is to please NOT buy your corgi from a pet store. Those dogs come from puppy mills (no matter what the employees say). And please spay or neuter your dog as soon as possible unless you plan to show them , or seriously breed them.
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Permalink Reply by MagnoliaFly on
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I agree. Lots of people have AKC Champions in the line or as breeding stock but it doesn't mean they were genetically tested. I think it would be difficult for a judge to tell if a dog has vWd or some genetic eye disease in its DNA. Hip dysplasia is a little easier but not always evident immediately.
It is wise to look for both a title and testing. I know lots of breeders will breed a champion to a non-titled dog. I don't see an issue with that as long as both dogs have had genetic testing, the temperament is sound as is the temperament throughout the line.
I think it also depends on what you're looking to do with the dog. If a person is looking for an agility dog for example they may be looking for intense drive. Some folks don't get their dogs agility titles in the AKC, they might be with NADAC and USDAA.
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Permalink Reply by Cindi on
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I agree it would be nice to maintain breed standard. However, many of these wonderful dogs are out there. If I can give them a loving home, regardless of whether they meet breed standard, then I should do so. Also, many folks simply cannot afford a show-quality corgi. There's a need for those of us who will look beyond breed standard and take in abused and abandoned corgis.
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Permalink Reply by Julie on
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Well said. There are lots of dogs out there that need good loving homes regardless of what the breed standard is. My corgi could never be shown, but we love her all the same! : )
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Permalink Reply by Sylvia on
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Question, you seem to very much be about Champion Show Dogs when it comes to breed standards and picking out a puppy. Especially when dealing with "backyard breeders" or rather to not deal with them at all. I have found by doing a good deal of research that it is actually a lot of these breed standards that are the PROBLEM when it comes to genetic malfunctions in the puppies. Like Hip Displaysia in German Shepherds for example. The only reason so many of them have bad hips now is because the AKC likes to see a sloped back because they think its "pretty." So isn't it better and healthier to get a puppy from a breeder who hasn't stuck so close to the same gene pool for so many generations?
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Permalink Reply by CaptainCorgi on
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I see where you are coming from and know what you mean. Puppymill and backyard breeder corgis seem to be more racy than the standard. My corgi, Eowyn, came from a couple who bred corgis from their backyards and she looks more like the racy type corgi. Our other corgi, Cardiff came from a breeder who had very good bloodlined corgis and he looks more like your Rudy. Heavier chest, a fuller mane around the neck and shorter legs. Eowyn looks skinny racy and longer legged. She also has a longer nose and a not-so full mane around her neck.
I think it mainly is the genetics in which people choose to breed. If you breed a racy corgi with a racy corgi, your going to get an even more racy corgi. Same as if you breed a heavier one, you'll get a heavier one. Also I think its the 'american' version. Such as in German Shepherds and Rottweiler. The american version are more skinnier and thin, the german versions of the dogs are heavier and more rounded. With the american german shepherds have those slanted legs as the german version aren't so extreme. I think the skinny, racy corgis are definently american version and the heavier, deeper chest ones are more european.
But who knows O_O???
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Permalink Reply by Charlie on
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I am a fairly vocal advocate of shutting down puppy mills and pet stores which source their puppy "inventory" through puppy mills. I am not such an advocate of shutting down all BYB's, as there are some BYB's who are very knowledgable about the breed, conscientious about health testing, temperament, and do sell with spay/neuter contracts. They care about their puppies, screen buyers, and offer ongoing support. Of course their are BYB's on the extreme opposite end, who are one step above puppy mill and care about nothing but the profit. Then there is everything in between.
As Debbie indicated, if all puppy mills and BYB's were shut down, and the only source to get a dog was a show/hobby breeder, there would be 90% fewer dogs. That would take care of the pet overpopulation problem! LOL Dogs would be more expensive than a new car, and you might be on a waiting list for years.
Caveat emptor! Buyer beware should be the watch words for puppy buyers. New dog owners often buy the first puppy from the first breeder that has available puppies. All puppies are cute. Later if they have health or temperament problems they become educated about the different levels of quality between different sources of pets. Buy now, ask questions later. Forums like MyCorgi can help to arm puppy buyers with the knowledge of what to look for, what questions to ask, what research to do before selecting a breeder. Educated buyers will select from a show/hobby or higher-end BYB as an alternative.
I would like to see some type of widespread campaign to educate the BYB's to help bring up their standards to include health testing, breeding to standard, guarantees etc. I know that's an idealist's pipe dream...but we all have our fantasies. LOL
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Permalink Reply by Tama on
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Because a dog is a champion doesn't mean it is free of hip dysplasia. There are champion corgis out there that are dysplastic and I know of dysplastic dogs of different breeds that compete and do well in agility. the only way to tell for sure if your dog is dysplastic is to xray and have the OFA read it, or Pennhip.
Good breeders try their best but even two dogs with excellent hips can have dysplastic puppies.
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