Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Julia on February 10, 2013 at 11:49pm

I'll just answer your first question: Lilliput has never liked being picked up. I can hold her to clean her up for a few minutes, or just to mess with her a bit, but she'll forcefully squirm away. If my partner holds her, she tolerates the cleaning for a few minutes because she knows there's a cookie coming, but then she gets growly and fights it. He doesn't fool around with her. When I first met her at 12 weeks she was frightened every time I picked her up at the breeders. 6 years later this is where we are. I wouldn't call her aggressive, at least with me, I would say scared and defensive.

She will also guard her water at the dog park. It's hers, nothing else there is, so I guess it's all she has. I warn off other dog owners by loudly explaining to their dog that it really wouldn't be a good idea to mess with the corgi's water right now :) Most people get it. If not, I just step in front of an approaching dog, not looking at him, before he gets too close. Since she shares with her brother, and doesn't guard from me, these things don't bother me. Besides, it's really not a great idea to share water with strangers.

Is he guarding a particular sleeping spot? Is he startled when you go to pick him up from a lying down position? Would he react better if you first called him to attention?

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Permalink Reply by N a t h a n & L u f f y on February 11, 2013 at 12:06am

Thank you for your reply.  I wouldn't say he is startled cause he would be staring at me.. I don't believe he is guarding a sleeping spot cause he will do it whenever he is laying down anywhere but it could be he thinks the entire house is his, maybe? I believe if i did get his attention and had him sit then he probably wouldn't be as snotty but i'm just worried if i have people over and he is laying down he might snap at them if he thought he was going to get picked up.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on February 11, 2013 at 10:13am

I would ask him to move rather than picking him up when he's lying down. I always think of those sorts of things in terms of my own likes and dislikes; if I were lying down on the couch and my husband wanted me somewhere else and he came over and picked me up and moved me, how would I feel?

Dogs need to tolerate being picked up in case there is an emergency, so we should get them used to it with treats. But for every day living, they should know some sort of "move, please" command and move under their own steam.

For beds, I would just teach him "off". Mine now "off" which is "get down" and "excuse me" which is "move over but you can stay on the furniture.

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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Markley on February 11, 2013 at 10:29am

Here we go...

I do not believe in time in time outs.  Either for humans or animals.

The key to this behavior is not to back down.  Let him know that you are serious, and that that behavior will not be tolerated.  You don't have to beat a dog into submission, the key is to get them to respect you.  They have to know that you are the boss.

I am a firm believer in pinning the dog with unwanted behavior.  That being said, there are many that will disagree with me.  If your dog is a puppy, start now, and you won't have to do it but once or twice for any scenario.  Give a firm "No" and keep them scruffed and pinned on their side until they are completely still and will glance at you but look away quickly.  Still do the NILF program, but the dog has to know that what you say goes.

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Permalink Reply by Anna Morelli on February 11, 2013 at 11:56am

@Jennifer Markley:   Pinning a dog down is a training technique that works in some situations, when correctly applied by someone who  knows what they are doing, has a good grasp of dog behavior and sufficient experience with dog training in general.  That's a lot of requirements....  More often I have seen it misused and abused and I have seen many dogs ruined by the application of this maneuver, which also puts people in harms way because, if the dog does not submit, you have a sure bite situation. I would not recommend it because of this, particularly with an adult dog.

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Permalink Reply by Anna Morelli on February 11, 2013 at 10:35am

People aggression of any kind is never to be underestimated, or tolerated and is different from dog to dog aggression, which is normal in many dogs and can be managed.  I would err on the side of caution and have my Vet check him out to make sure nothing is hurting him that is associated with the lying down position, or getting up from it.  I personally don't allow my dogs on beds or furniture and would not recommend it to anyone with a dominant dog, but I also do not tend to pick dogs up.  Many toy breeds become people aggressive simply because just about everybody wants to pick them up and it's disconcerting and dis empowering to them. Like Beth, I have taught my dogs words that convey what I want them to do.  I'm assuming he's neutered, if not I would I would also recommend that.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on February 11, 2013 at 10:42am

Jennifer, I guess my question would be this: why SHOULD a dog tolerate being picked up when he's lying down? A Corgi is a husky dog and it undoubtedly hurts to be picked up, and you are catching him off guard besides.

So I guess my response would be that what you are telling your dog is this: I have the right to do anything I like to you, any time I like, even if it hurts you, and if you tell me you don't like it I'll threaten to harm you by pinning you."

I guess I just wonder why people expect their dogs to tolerate treatment that they never in a million years would tolerate themselves? Dogs need to learn to live with us respectfully, but that respect should go both ways.

I know it hurts ME when someone picks me up. How can I know it doesn't hurt the dog?

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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Markley on February 11, 2013 at 5:13pm

WHY should a dog tolerated being picked up?  For multiple reasons.  One, because you are the human and he is the dog.  Secondly, so he doesn't bite the humans at the vet when they reach down to pick him up to examine him.  Thirdly, what if there's a fire in the house and you need to get the dog out and he's run under the bed and won't come out?  There are acceptable and unacceptable behaviors.  Growling, snarling, and nipping at humans should NEVER be allowed.  EVER.  Granted, there are times that a dog will warn you they are about to bite, and you should know what these cues are.  BUT, it should NOT be tolerated.  You may disagree with me, but none of my dogs has ever growled at, snarled, nipped or even attempted to bite or threaten to bite a human. ANY human. My vet actually just told me a month ago that they love it when my dogs come in because they are so well behaved.  AND, I got a Christmas present from them for taking such good care of my animals. My dogs are a part of my family.  I do not beat them, yell at them or mistreat them in any way.  But I am the leader, and what I say goes.  It's respect, and it goes both ways.  You may disagree with my methods, but they work.  

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Permalink Reply by Beth on February 11, 2013 at 6:54pm

I am a small person and so when I was a teen friends would jokingly pick me up I assure you, it is physically uncomfortable. My dogs will vacate any spot I ask them to without my resorting to picking them up. Both will tolerate it, but neither likes it and I don't blame them.

You are actually not meant to correct growling because it conditions some dogs to bite with no warning instead. So what you do is condition them to tolerate the situation with reward and perhaps humane correction.

But you also work not to force your dog into situations where you create conflict. So dog who growls on the bed loses bed privilege.

However, picking up a down dog could be painful. To correct a dog who may have reacted to pain with a snarl by pinning him is inviting escalation to a full blown bite and possibly a euthanized dog, all over a situation that could have been easily avoided.

And how the dog reacts on the bed in the day is a poor indicator of how he'd react under the bed in a fire, or at the vets in an accident.

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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Markley on February 11, 2013 at 7:11pm

I totally disagree.  NO aggression should EVER be tolerated.  I can assure you, no dog of mine has EVER growled at me more than once.  I can do whatever I like to them.  The only time I would ever fear  them biting me would be if they were injured- as any dog may do.  Otherwise I don't fear them at all, because I know that I can do whatever I want to them, and they will tolerate it because they know that I will in under no circumstance, hurt them intentionally.  We have a mutual respect, and trust.  I don't just go up and pin them for no reason, there has to be a situation serious enough to warrant a stern correction.  I don't agree that correcting growling will lead to biting.  It simply lets them know that you are boss, and they can't pull that crap on you.  I have never had to pin a dog more than twice.  Ever.  But again, I'm not scared, and I go at it with the attitude that I am going to win under any circumstance.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on February 11, 2013 at 7:24pm

I've never pinned my dogs and I'm not scared of them either.  AND they tolerate being picked up, though they don't like it.  Jack starts to panic so we minimize it, but even my cuddler Maddie doesn't like it.

To each his own.  I can show you the research about pinning dogs and about growling, but you are entitled to your opinions.  Mine move when I say "excuse me" even if they are sound asleep on a cuddly blanket.  Jack is an extremely dominant dog, and I never needed to pin him or even scold him to get him to comply.  He DID used to growl if he was part way on my lap and I leaned over so I was looming over him.  I would put him on the floor for this, and then over time I would gently condition him to tolerate the behavior by starting out small, praising, and gradually increasing the intensity of the activity.

I'll bet if your boss, your husband, your mother, or anyone you like and respect came and picked you up to move you, you would resent it and you might be frightened into going along with it but it would not improve your relationship.   Parents no longer pick up their children to get respect once the children outgrow toddlerhood.   And dogs don't carry each other around.  It is not a natural thing to ask of a dog.  We MUST accustom them to it for safety's sake, but we should do that using positive reward-based methods and then do it as seldom as possible, and always remember that it's an utterly unnatural and unnerving thing to ask an adult dog to tolerate being toted around and so minimize how often we do it.

So many confrontations with dogs, over food and over space, could be so easily avoided.  The physics of picking up a dog while it is lying down are very difficult.   So much easier to train the dog to move and if he still gets grouchy, just don't allow him on the bed.  Dogs can growl for many reasons, including fear.  If you physically dominate a fearful dog you just make the situation worse.  Most amateur owners don't have the behavioral backgrounds to recognize the difference between fear aggression and dominance aggression, and correcting the former increases the fear while correcting the latter can just cause the dog to counter-challenge and is best handled with the guidance of a professional.

http://www.doggonesafe.com/growling_at_the_kids

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Permalink Reply by Beth on February 11, 2013 at 7:41pm

Here's more about why you shouldn't correct growls (I've done it, but I didn't handle the situation correctly).

http://dogtrainer.quickanddirtytips.com/dog-growls-snaps.aspx

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2258

http://www.pawprintsthemagazine.com/?p=14492

http://ezinearticles.com/?Dog-Growling---Understanding-Dog-Growling...!&id=1195531

With these methods, both you AND the dog win, rather than you winning and the dog losing.  

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