Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Margie L. Capell on August 16, 2009 at 10:47pm

Does it really make a difference? It's an important issue to those of us who deal with DM any way you look at it.

Permalink Reply by Beth on August 16, 2009 at 11:02pm

I am asking because it seems people with a like-minded view have all come over here at once to express it. As I say, welcome, welcome. I have seen this happen on boards before. With the disease I have, we regularly have people come over from another board whenever there is a diet thread. They never discuss anything except diet. It is their only interest regarding Ankylosing Spondylitis.

So they are at this other board, where a small minority of people with AS hold a view that is outside the mainstream and have all found each other, but they come over en masse onto the diet threads and therefore it can sometimes seem that their views are much more widely held than they really are.

Generally they join and make a handful of posts in one or two threads regarding diet and that is all we hear from them.

I was just seeing if something similar was happening here.

Permalink Reply by Margie L. Capell on August 16, 2009 at 11:16pm

It's not always the width of the view that counts, it's the importance of it. Impact is impact. Off to beddie bye for Woody and me. More later, I'm sure.

Permalink Reply by Kathleen Mallery on August 16, 2009 at 11:01pm

You deprived us of our freedom of speech! You didn't like what we were saying so you closed the door on us. We weren't done talking yet so decided to start our OWN thread. THIS ONE you can't shut down just because breeders and DM dog pet owners don't agree with you.

Maybe you could enlighten us of your alterior motive? Do you have an "at risk" dog you are trying to justify breeding? Believe me, those of us who have lived with these dogs WILL spread the word. We WILL see to it breeders are made aware they can't just breed to the flavor of the month to win in the show ring. There is much more to breeding than the wins. As I said on YOUR thread, winning is the reward NOT the reason for breeding and exhibiting dogs.

Our discussion has nothing to do with you. Beth, it's NOT all about you. IT IS ALL ABOUT CORGIS (i'm not yelling, only emphasizing). However, I AM glad you are reading....now you are hearing "the rest of the story".

Permalink Reply by Beth on August 16, 2009 at 11:20pm

Sheesh! LOL.

Permalink Reply by Millie Williams on August 17, 2009 at 5:30am

I can't agree with "outside the mainstream". This like every single other genetic disease, is looked at by pembroke breeders suspiciously. They did it in the 80s with hips/eyes. When I was looking for a puppy, I was told that wasn't important, there wan't a problem in the breed. I was callked reactionary and a kook, that girl who saw ghosts when there were none. We had about 600 corgis (pems/cardis, they didn't differentiate at first) on the OFA list which of course, was not on line, you had to keep track of the dogs yourself. When I had some PBGVs in the 90s, I was told the same thing by those who were involved in that breed. Why was I looking for a problem when there wasn't one? Well, there was in that breed. Not only hips/eyes, but familial epilepsy and aseptic meningitis, also running in families. Can you say genetic? Both of these were very much quality of life issues and of concern. And they were hidden so people could raise pups and sell them for big bucks. I had a bitch I imported from England, she had her clearances and I could not find a dog with clearances who was one I thought would match well with her. I finally got out of the breed because of the idiotic people who were there just to make money and win at shows. It's so much more than that. It's people's lives and their pets.

I've made a committmet to this breed. Beth, we know there are clears out there but if people won't test then we can't find them. This disease could be part of the history books and totally eliminated in 10 years. There would not need to be any more research. I hope to do my part in the next 2 generations. There needs to be more awareness. People who have pets need to test so they can be alert if their dogs begin to exhibit symptoms. Vets don't even know what this is, people are told by a friend, or a trainer, and they explore it and find it out. Once it's found, then lifestyle changes can be made, both for the dog and the humans involved. The other choice is that the dog can be put down. Neither are great choices when your heart is involved. Breeders need to test so they can make decisions. It's more important than the perfect set of ears or some other physical trait.

I have generations of dogs that have hips, elbows, vWD, eye and cardiac clearances. Now you if you wanted to open up a can of worms, check out cardiac problems with just about any breeder. Oh, they will tell you there is no problem. Wrong. It's the dirty little secret of this breed. Has been for years.....Just because people don't talk about it doesn't mean it's not there. There is currently a top dog here in the US that is being actively campaigned and used at stud and he's producing it in nearly every litter. The pups are either fixed up and sold or destroyed. It's been nearly impossible for me to find dogs who people are willing to test. I've been extremely lucky but also extremely ruthless in my search for dogs with clearances. I finally realized a few years back that I was making a huge mistake in not keeping my own boys. I have kept a lot of boys, looking for clearances and the right traits that I desire to make a beautiful, friendly, well socialized and physically healthy dog. If the boy in my current litter is clear, he will be retained and in a co ownership for further testing and hopefully turning out to be a gorgeous dog. He will not be perfect, no dog will, but he will help to save breeding programs, those countless hours that breeders have spent perfecting a line, by producing carriers and clears. The bottleneck effect of genetics that keeps being brought up, (aka popular sire syndrome) will not occur if people get off their butts and just test. People are afraid of what they will find. I was terrified. But I knew it had to be done.

I don't think anyone is picking on you Beth, really. I think everyone has been very polite and kind and I know I was perplexed as to why the thread was shut down. Apparently you do have more than a passing interest in the subject and we are glad that you came over here to post. All and any ideas are always welcome and I will leave this thread open for all to post on. I know some here are from Wheelcorigs, they have lived the experience and you have not. I pray you won't ever have to do it. Can you understand why they are passionate about this? These dogs just mysteriously "got older" and "got lame" and were put down in years past. Now we have a very effective tool to prevent this from ever having to happen again. It's not that hard to test, not that expensive. I went thru all of mine except for three elders who I will send in for the free test shortly. I just bred a clear male to an at risk girl. Pups will be carriers. Shelby, this is where your post was in error, the at risks CAN be used for breeding, just be sure you use a clear (preferred, I would think) or a carrier (not improving much, but be sure you keep a carrier if it's the at risk that you own, it's a tiny step in the right direction, and sell with full disclosure to the new owner). With some breeders, this will be the very best that they can do to start with and I don't have a problem with that. Carriers to carriers will produce at risks, but also maybe a precious clear. (Also will produce carriers, but that's ok.)

I am fortunate that I have clear boys. Very, very, very fortunate and I think any breeder out there would whoop and holler to have been given this gift. I really didn'tknow what I was going to get and the first boy was a huge relief and the second boy was gravy on top! But the point is, had I not tested, I'd never have had reason to celebrate. I have had a large number of people contact me about using my boys, sent one out West to stand at stud for a few months and he was even collected for future use out there since we really needed our good boy back with us. :) I have a list a yard long for pet people who want pups that will not get this disease. People are learning about this and asking questions. This alone will eventually drive breeders to test.

Beth, just out of curiosity, have you tested your dog? And what was the result?

I am sure that some of the reluctance in testing is because we did have a vWD test by another lab that was found to be faulty and people are suspicious. The DM test was developed by a university under strict guidelines, I'm sure. I am amazed, too, at the droves of breeders who will test for the fluffy gene (and fluffies are easy to sell, my gosh, all a family has to do is come and see the litter and I find they are the first ones to go!) which has nothing to do with health and everything to do with looks, but not check the dog's health for DM which can kill.

Well, yes, it's very early in the morning and I couldn't sleep so I come down and cruise around the internet for an hour. Back to bed for an hour. Oh and by the way, I have been a member here for a while, just never found that much to comment on here. I usually read more than I comment on, same as on corgi L, show pem, etc. I really do think the people who have joined just want to be sure that there is a different viewpoint represented. The other thread was pretty confusing in some of the posts (my rambler did not come out formated the way I wanted it when I cut and pasted it and I do apologise for that once again).

I pray we can save this breed. I still remember the mysterious "hip thing" that GSDs were being put to sleep for in the 1960s and 1970s. Thank God someone thought to xray to see if they could see anything and breeders made an effort to curb that. :)

Permalink Reply by Sam Tsang on August 17, 2009 at 10:03am

Ladies! Ladies! Thank you for joining our humble site. Great topic and lots of information, I've met several wheeled corgis before and understand how touchy this subject can be. I'm going to close this discussion and direct y'all to join the "Wheeled Corgis" Group, we have 4 existing members there that can really use your expertise and support. There is also a "chat" tab, it allows the participants to discuss matters in real time. Finally, if you feel so incline, please exchange phone numbers and communicate effectively with each other.

MyCorgi.com is known to be the most friendly community, we've worked hard to build an atmosphere where newbies can ask questions and be educated in a non judgmental manner. We have some corgi legends among us lately, here's your chance to pass on that baton to a new generation, how would you like us youngsters to remember your name? what kind of reputation are you creating for your kennel, rescue and organization? On behalf of a new generation of Corgi owners, I want to say "thank you", cause we're watching and learning from you, both "what to do" and "what not to do".

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