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Permalink Reply by Miri, Bailey and Cali on July 14, 2009 at 2:30pm

This is a great post. My husband and I went to a local pet store in the mall and saw a cute little corgi pup. We asked if we could see her, and they set us up in one of their play rooms with the pup. She seemed fine while we were playing with her. But at one time, the pup got a little excited while we were playing with her, and she started this horrible cough. My husband and I recently lost our 17-year old Chihuahua/Rat Terrier Mix to chronic heart failure. A couple of years before his death he had the exact same cough that that little pup had.
The pet store had big signs up saying that all their pups are from family breeders. Needless to say we did not trust the sign and even though it was hard to leave the little pup behind, we decided to do more research on puppies and look at the reputation of the pet store further. I found a You Tube video where a person went to a handful of "family breeders" that the pet store was claiming to get all their pups from...all of them were puppy mills. We went back to the same store on another day. While walking around the store and looking at the pups, I saw a Boston Terrier getting ready to go #2, and I was shocked to see that blood with coming out while this little pup was doing its business. That was it for me. If I still had any doubts as to where the store gets these pups, I was convinced now that these pups were not healthy and not from reputable breeders. :-(
Plus the prices of the store were insane. My friends recently inquired about a french bulldog and were quoted a price of $2,300. The corgi pup was quoted to us for $1,200. The store associates are quick to say that they are willing to negotiate the price. From other posts on different sites about the specific pet store I learned that their negotiations entails knocking $200 off the price if you purchase a "puppy starter kit", which comes with a crate, some food and a toy. Also, the store requires you to purchase a year supply of their dog food...

I am glad that we found a breeder I trust and respect for my baby girl, Bailey, but my heart does go out to all the poor pups currently behind glass in pet stores.

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Permalink Reply by Beauty and the Beast on July 14, 2009 at 3:48pm

no reputable breeder would EVER sell their puppies to a pet store. EVER.

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Permalink Reply by Beauty and the Beast on July 14, 2009 at 3:46pm

This is really sad. Especially sad that there are people who actually buy puppies from pet stores as well as people who work there. I would expect someone who loves animals and knows enough to help me pick a toy/food/treats etc.
Puppy mills must be stopped.
Besides, who in the world will pay 1300 for a puppy at a store withough papers when you can get a well bred one with pedigree and no genetic problems guarantee?? That's just insane.

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Permalink Reply by Heather and Ella on July 14, 2009 at 4:57pm

What an informative discussion. I've enjoyed reading everyone's posts on how they've ended up with their babies and experiences that they have had. We got Ella from a breeder who looked good on the website, phone, and on paper. And boy are looks deceiving. After driving 3 hours to a "family breeder" who "just loves corgis", we found the animals in 20 below weather out in a half broken barn. Poor Ella was in a boarded up 3 foot area next to the pig. She had a pile of hay, a frozen water bowl, and was covered in her own poop. She had very little social contact in her short life. And the lady just kept saying how much she loves her dogs and how well she cares for them. Ella's dad, the champion, was in a small metal kennel out in the open with no shelter. Her mom was in a kennel "out back" with several other corgis. That kennel looked a bit better with some shelter, but it was 20 below weather in Michigan this last winter.
We just agreed with everything the lady said, so she would let us take Ella out of that place.
The lady "needed rid" of Ella and two of her brothers, because they were getting old (8 months old) and she hadn't planned on keeping them. My little Ella slept in my lap the whole way home curled up in my warm coat, so happy to be warm and loved. She was even scared of us petting her at first. Had we had the funds and room, we would probably taken her brothers home as well. It still makes me cry to think about her beginnings, and how well she has improved the 5 months she was lived with us.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on July 14, 2009 at 5:28pm

And yet there are good "family breeders," you just must be careful. There are people who breed hunting dogs, working farm dogs, etc who are not involved with the show circuit and are involved with sporting clubs instead of necessarily the official breed clubs.

But they still have testing for diseases, they still screen their bloodlines for flaws. They have different goals than the show folks is all. But again, the rules for good pups are the same regardless: Do they have a contract? Do they ask you as many or more questions as you ask them? Do their parents have some sort of good characteristics they want to pass on (hunting ability, herding ability, etc)? Do they have their health clearances? Have they been socialized? Vet checked? Wormed and vaccinated?

Another trick of the puppy mills is to bring the one litter you are looking at in the house so you can see them and they look home-raised; the mill is in the barn out back, hidden from view.

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Permalink Reply by Beauty and the Beast on July 17, 2009 at 4:04pm

Wow this is really shoking. Most of backyard breeders register their dogs in AKC and say that they have champion bloodlines (very vague statement). Looks can be deceiving, but if the breeder doesn't ask you a lot of personal questions and doesn't require to meet you BEFORE even picking a puppy, then it's a bad breeder. The fact that she wanted to get rid of her dogs so soon, and that she considered 8 weeks to be too old speaks for itself. She just didn't want to be responsible for vaccinations and food.
Our breeder would not release her puppies until 10 weeks old and actually prefers to keep them till 12 to crate train them.

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Permalink Reply by Cindi on July 14, 2009 at 8:35pm

Thanks Wendy. Good article. I can't number the times I see pups from the flea market or pet stores that are deathly ill. People pay top dollar - much more than necessary - and think they are being told the truth. It's just maddening. I recall one woman who purchased what was supposed to be a 7 week old Yorkie at a place called AmeriPets in Alabama. If that dog was three weeks, it would surprise the crap out of me. It was weak, infested, wormy. I talked the new owner into taking the dog to the vet. The vet did all she could, even to the point of taking the pup home with her to watch it. Ten days later it was dead. I wish I didn't see this stuff. I honestly get quite jaded about some of these "breeders." My advise to anyone who comes in the store and asks is (1) find the club, for example the Pembroke Welsh Corgi Club of America. (2) look for breeders they recommend. (3) contact the club to see if they have info on the breeder. (4) contact the breeder. Ask as many questions as you need. And be sure they don't breed several different breeds! (5) get references.

If people would do their homework instead of buying on impulse, there would be a lot more healthy pups out there and we could begin to shut these horrible "breeder" down!

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Permalink Reply by Shepdog on July 15, 2009 at 2:19am

If people would do their homework instead of buying on impulse, there would be a lot more healthy pups out there

That is the key point, right there. Actually, I don't care what sort of animal you're purchasing; let me tell you, right now in my area, equine rescue is out of control. People can't afford them, or bought them because they were cheap, and now... ugh. So many starving horses, and it's only going to get worse when summer stops. I could own five other horses in ten minutes if I said yes, and I've sure had a bunch offered to me.

I own a pet store. I don't sell dogs or cats, and the small animals are either rescues from locals or small breeders, not the big faculties. Health and behavioral problems run as badly in mass produced birds and hamsters. There are decent pet stores out there. A lot of them, actually -- but none of the ones I personally consider decent sell dogs or cats.

I've been in the show circuit on both (dogs and cats) since I was a kid. I knew about puppy mills from the time I was a teenager, and that was a while ago. However, I am always shocked at how many people simply don't know that they exists, nor that their dog comes from one.

I have a puppy mill rescue. He had behavioral, physical, and frankly, emotional issues. He's turned out to be a grand dog, but not many other people would have replaced their carpets in the house with pergo, knowing we had a wetting problem. Most of them would have gotten rid of him, put him to sleep, etc, sent him to a shelter -- or even well, not fixed him and let him continue to make more little train-wrecks just like him.

The thing that I've found to make most people comprehend just how good it is to buy from a reputable breeder is this little formula that the large-scale breeders don't want you to know. The breeder often sells in a litter lot - five pups for maybe less than fifty dollars a pup. Then the pups are graded A,B,C,D -- etc. Dogs with missing toes, limbs, chewed ears, etc... and obvious health issues are low graded, and it works up from there, giving points to those with more "champions" in the pedigree. On the average, the brokers pay less than a few hundred dollars per puppy. Then those puppies are sold by the broker, shipped and sorted (yep, sorted) again at the wholesaler's holding faculty. Mind you, they want those puppies to be at the store at eight weeks of age. So, they've taken them away from their moms and litters as early as five weeks.

The broker takes their cut and sells the pup for at least double the price. Now, your fifty dollar puppy is on the wholesaler's list for 200-500 dollars wholesale. Pretty good profit on their part for minimal work. (And hey, the pet stores even pay shipping!)

So now, the pet store gets this pup and they've paid 500.00 for it. Plus shipping. So now the dog is 1,200.00 in the window (the store has to keep their business going, and allow for a markdown.

Truly, you buy from a pet store, you just paid 1,200.00 for a fifty dollar dog. With no health testing, no guarantees, no nothing. Chances are, a dog from a reputable breeder will cost you about a third to a half less depending on the breed. You do get all those guarantees, you get a mentor, and you get a much happier, healthier dog who is mentally prepared to be your companion.

The problem is, there's always going to be people who simply don't care about any of this. so there will always be shady people breeding shady litters. These people want a puppy, and they want it now, and they don't want to wait or get screened or deal with a breeder. They want to plunk down money and come home with a dog today. All we can do is educate the ones who want to listen, and have those who didn't know before purchasing a puppy mill dog to come forward and say, "This is why you shouldn't." One person at a time may not seem much, but they'll tell someone else, and they'll tell someone else, and maybe someone fifty people down the line will say, "Yeah,but I heard those dogs come from bad places, and you can get a good dog from a good breeder for the same price."

My puppy mill Corgi has found his calling - he sits patiently at my feet while I tell his story at the shop, and I point out that he leaks like a sieve, was one of the hardest dogs I've ever had the pleasure of training. I love him. But he ended up in the right place with the right person, and so many of them don't.

Absolutely direct people to your breed clubs to look for reputable breeders. They're a fantastic resource, and you meet a lot of very nice people that way. it's a great place to start, for sure.

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Permalink Reply by Wendt Worth Corgi's on July 15, 2009 at 9:35am

Excellent layout of what these pups go through at such early impressionable stages, Shepdog!!!! These early stages are the stepping stones. Pup sales have slowed up in pet stores, thank goodness. Maybe more and more store owners will come to the conclusion that in the end its just not worth it. We can only hope.

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Permalink Reply by Cindi on July 15, 2009 at 6:26pm

This is exactly how I found the breeder for our new cardigan. She came highly recommended by the CWCCA. Now Patti and I are waiting for the litter to get older. The last week of July we're going to make the 250 mile trek to see the pups and see which one bonds with Patti since it will be her new service animal.

I just wouldn't purchase a pure-breed dog without going through the breed club. I know CWCCA has been invaluable in helping us make a wise decision on our breeder.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on July 15, 2009 at 7:02am

I just wanted to add my experience. Growing up, we never had puppy mill dogs. We (meaning my father) did have some pointers from a field trial breeder who line-bred too closely, and they ended up with major health problems. So a "reputable" breeder can have issues too, and it would be impossible for a novice owner to have the knowledge to know if a breeder is doing something funky like that. How many of us have the pedigree knowledge to study one? I used to follow Thoroughbred racing, and I know how close is too close there, but those people line breed an awful lot more than would likely be healthy in a dog.

Still, that being said, your chances are much better with a good breeder. After the pointers, most of our dogs were from backyard breeders. And they all had a host of issues. None serious, mind you, but you didn't necessarily get a dog that fit the breed description. You might have just as easily taken your chances with a mutt.

Since then, my parents got a very well-bred Chessie, and we got our Corgi, both from concerned breeders. And never again will I take my chances (intentionally) with anything other than a well-known breeder. Now, I might conceivably end up with a rescue one day when I have more time to devote to correcting all that baggage, but for now it's well-bred puppies for me.

If you get a well-bred puppy, you will get something that pretty much behaves (with proper socialization and training) like the breed standard says it will. If it is deemed to be not show material, it may be a little big or small, it might be mismarked or have the wrong coat, but you will probably be told all that when you get the dog. If the standard says a dog should be bold but biddable, then you can be pretty sure your dog will be bold but biddable. If the breed standard says the dog will tend to test you for dominance, then it likely will. If it says the breed should be gentle and fairly submissive, that's what you'll get.

So all these poor folks who are dealing with snappy Goldens, dominant labs, shy and fear-aggressive Shelties, and all the rest would probably not be dealing with those behavior problems if they got from a reputable breeder, as those traits don't meet the breed standard.

Remember all those Dalmatians that ended up in shelters? It would not have happened, because good Dalmatian breeders would explain that their dogs need lots of exercise and won't be happy left alone in your apartment all day. So many of the popular-breed problems that have arisen in the last 30 years or so---- German Shepherds turning on their owners, pit bulls attacking children, poodles that are so mean you can't even look at them sideways without them biting--- would have been avoided.

HOWEVER, we would still be left with all the breeds whose type has been so mutiliated by "good breeders" that they can't even reproduce naturally, ever (did you know that Frenchies, for example can't mate? The male simply cannot mount the female because of his build, and then they almost always need a C-section); or half of them die from heart defects, and all the rest. So I think sometimes the people who write the show standards need to take a good look in the mirror and understand that sometimes what they are doing contributes to animal cruelty in its own way, too.

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Permalink Reply by Wendt Worth Corgi's on July 15, 2009 at 9:05am

WOW Beth...nice write up..thanks for taking the time to elaborate on the topic in areas many don't think about or even realized. I hear all the time from people they just want a pet, not a show dog which is fine but don't settle just because it has a registration for that breed your seeking. You want that breed because you like that look and just because it has the registration doesn't mean it meets standards or personality traits. There is a lot more to it then putting 2 dogs together to create more. There are imprinting stages and a pup started right will be a much better pet.

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