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Permalink Reply by CorgiPants on June 4, 2008 at 12:40pm

Pinch and prong collars are the same thing. I think your trainer is being very upfront and honest by letting you know what types of tools they may suggest. And that is just what a pinch collar is, a tool. It's not something you will use for the rest of your dog's life and it's not a torture device when used correctly. It is not something to be frightened of, I've put them around my own neck and arm and we encourage anyone who will be using one to do the same. They can be less harmful than choke collars in certain situations and are one of the most misunderstood pieces of training equipment. They do look a little "dark-ages" but the prongs are NOT driven into the skin, they are blunt and the sensation is more pressure than pinch or poking. We use them in 4-H training for small children with big dogs that absolutely ignore the poor kid. That being said, I doubt your young corgi will ever require one. The decision of what tool to use should be based on your dog's progression in class and is ultimately your own decision NOT your trainers what you use and how you train. I do agree with them that a collar (plain buckle or limited slip) is much better for training than a halter. A halter makes pulling easier and more comfortable for the dog, in short training it to pull more. With a collar you can direct and correct, and once the dog does what you want, you praise!

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Permalink Reply by Cindi on June 4, 2008 at 12:49pm

CorgiPants, you have valid points. I do tend to react strongly to pinch collars. And in all my years of training, I think I've only ever suggested them seven times. In each instance the dog went through training but was so large and the owner so small that it was helpful. And, you are correct in that if used properly and fitted properly they are not painful.

Here's the rub, though: Most folks (and trainers) use them as a crutch. One can certainly train a dog, if they put the effort and have the tools, to be obedient. No need for negative training methods. I really disagree with using them unless it is absolutely necessary.

As for harnesses, most dogs will pull more simply because they are pulling from strength (their chest) and not weakness (their neck). If I dog is trained properly, they should be able to walk on a leash without difficulty. Leadership means everything in teaching walking on a leash. However, I would use a Gentle Leader head collar (unless the dog was breathing-impaired) before trying a pinch/prong or choke.

Funny, on the other forums it's the breeders who get passionate. I guess now it's my turn! :-)

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Permalink Reply by CorgiPants on June 4, 2008 at 1:07pm

Yes, many people out for a quick fix whiz by the pet store and pick up a prong, pop it on and walk the dog that way for the rest of its life. Bad, bad idea. I see the exact same thing happen with head halters which are also supposed to be phased out to a traditional collar but I seldom see it happen. The question at hand is prong collar use in an organized class under supervision so I doubt it would be used as a crutch in this situation. A head halter applies positive punishment, adding a stimulus to be avoided, just like a prong. Pressure around the neck or pressure around the face with a twist of the spine, still the same mode of Operant Conditioning. As a trainer, I am open to a vast array of tools depending on the situation and I can see that this trainer is too since they openly explained what might be suggested in the duration of the class.

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Permalink Reply by Parker on June 4, 2008 at 1:02pm

I've walked Grover the past few days on just his collar and he has done great. I think I really should have just started off with the collar to begin with, but he seemed to like the harness so much more (for obvious reasons, he has more control over what he does! :) ) Anyway, I don't think I'll be using a prong collar or choke collar or whatever for training. I, honestly, don't think Grove is going to need it.
I appreciate all the awesome advice. I think I'll go in this Thursday and sit in on a class with this trainer before I make my final decision. Overall, I think that fact that they were up front that this was a method that they used and it is optional is a good thing. I'm just going to be firm, with any trainer, and make the decisions for my dog.
You guys are all awesome and I think it's great that we have so many responsible, caring dog lovers on this forum!

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Permalink Reply by Ginny and Diggory on June 4, 2008 at 9:38pm

Good luck! Training class was so much fun! A flat buckle collar should be all you need. Our trainer used a lot of positive reinforcement in class using vocal cues and treats to teach behaviors. Corgis are so smart, I'm sure Grover will catch on quickly and be the star of the class in no time! Just remember to make it fun for him too. He'll pick up on your energy, so don't get frustrated if he doesn't get everything the very first time. Just be patient and positive. It's such a great way to bond with your dog and you will learn to communicate with one another better.

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Permalink Reply by Cindi on June 5, 2008 at 9:21am

And I'm glad to hear you are going to sit in on a class. I encourage my prospective clients to do that. You'll have to let us know what you think. And I'm even more thrilled to hear you are taking control of how you train your dog. Good for you! I think you'll be pleased at how quickly Grover learns. Corgis are quick--but because they are so smart you'll need to keep him busy and occupied so he doesn't become bored.

Best of luck! Keep us posted on how it's going with Grover!

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