Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Charlie on March 18, 2008 at 12:36pm

I have a couple of questions. How long have your dogs lived together? Are they male/female, male/male, or female/female? Has anything in your household changed recently (moving to new house, new person in your house, etc)? Any other recent change in their normal routine (exercise, food, schedule)?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jodi Stehmeyer on March 18, 2008 at 12:43pm

Hi Charlie - thanks for the quick response!

They are both female, and have lived together since they were 2-3 months old. We did move from CA to TN in 5/04 and that is exactly when the fighting started, but only once or maybe twice per year. Now we have 4 serious fights in one month. I work long hours at home and they pretty much just lay near me. Until Jan, we used to play a serious lot of fetch but one of them started limping so I phased it out in favor of 2-3 short walks per day instead (plus this way the owner gets excercise too!) I do think not fetching has them a bit peeved, but they love the walks. Then fight #2 (of the 4 in recent month) was actually ON a walk and now I am afraid to take them out, plus one of them hurt 2 of her feet during the fights.

I'm really upset - they are clearly not enjoying their living arrangement and the more they beat eachother up, they seem very unhappy :(

Any suggestions are welcome! Thank you! Jodi

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Charlie on March 18, 2008 at 1:31pm

The move in 2004 is too long ago to cause the fighting in the last month. It sounds like they had a few territory fights with the move but managed to work it out.

Tell me if you have observed the following. From what you wrote, I'm guessing that the dog who started limping was previously the leader of the two dogs (correct me if I'm wrong). Once she had an injury (the limp) the fights started. In a wolf pack, if the alpha dog is injured, the second strongest dog will take over the pack. Having a healthy leader is necessary for survival of the pack. Unfortunately, the previous leader may be unwilling to give up their position easily.

Which dog hurt two of her feet during the fight that occurred during the walk? The same dog who was limping, or the other dog? Does it seem like one dog is always the instigator of the fights or does it seem equal? Very often the wrong dog gets the blame. The instigator is often the "quiet one", but if you watch closely that "quiet one" is staring down the other dog directly in the eyes causing the threatened dog to lunge out in defense. Your dogs may be sitting quietly in your office, one dog starts the attack but it may be because the other dog was giving her the "C'mon, I dare you" eye.

Sorry to ask so many questions, but trying to understand why the dogs are fighting and who is instigating is a good first step to working a solution. Meanwhile, since they are fighting about once a week, I would either tie their leashes to stationary objects in your office while your work, or put them in separate kennels, i.e. until you have a good approach to solve the problem don't allow them the opportunity to get at eash other.

Also, do you have someone to help you with some training techniques?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Sam Tsang on March 18, 2008 at 3:45pm

I agree with Charlie 100%, the only thing that I will add is exercise. It is very very important to a dog's behavior and health. A walk builds the relationship among the pack, always be the leader and lead them, don't let them walk you :) Remember you are the leader of the pack, you're calm and in control.

Do you have access to netflix . block buster . or cable? try and catch the "dog whisperer" by cesar millan, you'll definitely learn something from it :)

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Sam on March 18, 2008 at 6:34pm

This is truly a difficult dilemma. Typically if fights are regular and cause true injury it is a rare person that will be able to change the behaviors of these dogs. What I typically see when I look deep into a situation such as this is that there have been many warning signs displayed by the dogs. Unfortunately most dogs owners are just not as aware of dog behavior as some. The behavior builds and builds until it becomes a danger. Often by this time it has also become an ingrained behavior.
Close observations will reveal the "triggers" or what leads up to the outbursts. Some of the more usual ones are food, favorite toys, spacial issues or possessiveness over the human in the home.
You may do some research on the "NILF" or Nothing in Life is Free training style. If used properly this should help you gain much more control and respect from your dogs. Controlled exercise is also a great help. Under no circumstances should they be left together unsupervised. You may have to keep them separate until you find the root of your problems. You may also do well to enlist the help of a trainer in your area to help you identify the issues. Good luck!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jodi Stehmeyer on March 19, 2008 at 10:29am

Hi Sam. I really appreciate your input. Much as I hate it - I think you have hit the nail on the head. I am almost certain that the issue is possessivness of ME. The fights never happen unless I am right there. The 'beta' dog is truly obsessed with me - the alpha dog has a regular affection. Had another terrible fight last night. That is 4 serious fights in 6 days - all in situations that do not at all seem to be unique (walking across the room, taking them out to the yard, futzing in the bathroom. Now that they are beat up ,seems the beta dog is acting like she is guarding me. The alpha just stays away because she is hurt more. I cant always tell who is starting the fights because there is no pre-amble....just they are in close proximity, near me and then they start. After the fight last night I know they need to be separated...we just cannot have nightly fights. I am very concerned that this is a habit now (the ingrained behavior) and it just seems like they really cant live together pleasantly any more. Terribly sad because they are both such sweet pups - just dont like eachother in this environment. Anyone would be lucky to have either of them. I think I can separate by taking one to the vet to have her wounds flushed or maybe take one to the kennel for a 'break'. But then what happens when I reintroduce them? This sure is nerve wracking. I'll look into the NILF training you mention and worry I should maybe look into some rescue options. Sigh. Thanks Sam!

Jodi

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Charlie on March 19, 2008 at 1:45pm

Do they have crates? I would try keeping one dog in its crate while the other is loose, and switch them out for "free time" to keep them separated.

Over time I've read multiple threads across different forums about dog's fighting, and too often see advice that there is nothing to do except always keep the dogs separated forever. I believe that complete separation is a last resort if all attempts at behavior modification fail.

The NILIF techniques should be put in place to make sure that both of the dogs view you as their pack leader. Then whichever dog is alpha of the two dogs needs you to reinforce its pack status by feeding it first, petting first, playing first, etc. This article offers over a dozen steps to help modify behavior and restore peace in the house. http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_AggressionDogsInSameHo...

If these techniques don't work for you, you may want to schedule a one hour house call from a professional behaviorist who can observe the situation in person and help you solve the issues. I do think that the dogs can be retrained to live together without fighting, and would hate to see you rehome one without trying first to modify their behavior.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Amanda on March 20, 2008 at 3:20pm

I think they're just stressed out and pissy over the move. Also maybe fighting over the new territory. I'm sorry to hear about the seriousness of the fighting though. I guess the only thing I can tell you to do is break it up and let them know you don't accept that behavior. Not sure if that'll work but it's all I got. Also lots of excercize should calm them down a bit. I know that's the main thing the Dog Whisperer recommends. Seems to sap their energy pretty well with my dogs.

• ▶ Reply