Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Carolyn and Gracie on June 12, 2011 at 12:10am

Gracie does the same when I try to swim. She runs around the pool barking her head off and she rarely barks otherwise. She does hate the vacuum cleaner and barked at it until I gave her a time-out in the laundry room. Now I just waggle a finger at her before I start and threaten a time-out and she's an angel. If I want a quiet swim, I have to keep her indoors. Gotta love 'em! :)

Permalink Reply by justine moeller on April 22, 2011 at 6:41pm

That is disgusting and makes me very very upset in regards to the breeder debarking her corgis.

Permalink Reply by Carolyn and Gracie on May 1, 2011 at 12:16am

Gracie and I think that's horrible and wonder if people would do that to an annoying child.

Permalink Reply by Jane on April 22, 2011 at 7:06pm

I've seen quite a few very well respected breeders that debark their dogs. I don't think any responsible person would ever debark a dog just for their own convenience, but when you have 5+ dogs living in the same household sometimes you don't have a choice. Not everyone has the luxury of acres of land and there are neighbors to appease and laws to follow.

Permalink Reply by justine moeller on April 22, 2011 at 7:09pm

Then maybe they should not be breeding dogs??? Just a thought. Of course you HAVE a choice about debarking your dogs. If you live in an area where barking is not tolerated then you SHOULD NOT have multiple corgis or you should be willing to deal with the consequences. These respected reputable breeders may produce "high quality" dogs, but what they are doing is wrong. Acres of land is a luxury --- a dog having his/her voice is a right.

Permalink Reply by Jane on April 22, 2011 at 8:08pm

So having his voice is a right, but having his testicles isn't? Kind of splitting hairs IMO. I believe there was an article that showed that keeping a male dog intact was actually better for their health in the long run, but yet we still neuter our dogs rather than deal with managing an intact male. I'm not suggesting everyone should run out and debark their dogs, but I'd rather see a dog debarked than rehomed or euthanized.

Permalink Reply by justine moeller on April 22, 2011 at 8:29pm

I would rather see a dog debarked then euthanized as well. But the subject was about breeders who debark. Not someone who has adopted or purchased a dog and has exhausted ALL other options.
Having his testicles was a right until WE, the human population over bred and acted irresponsibly created a HUGE surplus of dogs. I neuter my dogs and all of my rescues so they never have to contribute to the death of another shelter dog.
We know what it is like to have a barking dog, one of our corgis barks non stop at everything. We got a trainer, that worked slightly...we work everyday to minimize his barking but we also made the choice to get corgis AND live in a city so we were prepared to deal with the issues.
Breeders who debark are being selfish and irresponsible and it should never be an option for someone who chooses to profit off of dogs.

 

Im not going to continue to discuss something I know is wrong and totally irresponsible to do, especially for a breeder....we are in 2011. Melissa, I know its difficult to control!! We have a barking one too. We try distraction with yummy (extra) yummy treats and try to include them in the play instead of just herding and barking. Good Luck!

Permalink Reply by Beth on April 22, 2011 at 8:37pm

Hmm.   I'm wondering if you read the articles by the vet and the Sheltie breeder?  Personally in a pet household I would not debark, but I'm not sure it's any more cruel than any other elective surgery.  You own a docked breed, correct?  How is that any less of a problem?  After all, a dog uses its tail to communicate much more often than its voice.  Regardless, I assure you that my bark-reduced dog still barks just fine.  She also whines, growls, and makes all the normal vocalizations just fine.  I'm not sure that she's at all bothered by whether or not her voice is full volume.   I've seen no indication that she is even aware of the difference.

 

My indoor-only cat is spayed and that was a very invasive procedure.  Intact she'd be unlikely to ever get pregnant because she has little chance of getting out, but in season female cats are impossible to live with.  Rescues routinely spay/neuter very young kittens and puppies which is a fairly major health concern, in my opinion.  My male dog was neutered for the sake of convenience, even though there is increasing evidence that intact male dogs are healthier than neutered males (better weight, fewer joint problems).  IF we wanted to just stop unwanted pregnancies and not control behavior we would simply tie the tubes of female pets, or do a vasectomy on male ones, but we remove organs altogether and therefore greatly alter the normal hormonal balance of our pets.  I'm wondering why our dogs have a right to a full-volume voice instead of a reduced one, but don't have the right to their own testicles?  After all, we don't castrate people as a means of birth control.  Castration of male animals is purely elective, done to intentionally modify behavior that can often be controlled by training or learned to be dealt with, no?

 

I hate to see this turn into a debate on debarking, but it does seem to me that people who are a-ok with other elective surgeries (even push very hard for them, in the case of rescues) have an emotional reaction to debarking.   There are lots of bark-reduced Shelties, Collies, and Corgis out there because they are dogs that were bred to bark.   Most all of us, with the exception of a tiny handful with intact undocked dogs, have dogs that were surgically altered to please us and change behavior or, in the case of tails, shape.   We're mostly ok with that yet cringe at the debarking.  I don't know why that is but probably just because the one set of surgeries (castration/hysterectomy) is common and even preached to us as being good and necessary, while the other surgery is rare.

Permalink Reply by Melissa and Franklin! on April 22, 2011 at 9:08pm

I think most people think of a laryngotomy when they think of debarking and don't even realize there is another (though not nearly as effective) less invasive method. What I don't get is why everyone is so ok with declaws in cats but so opposed to debarking? Again, I would never debark one of my dogs, but if it saves a life and prevents a dog from being euthanized then really I don't understand what all the fuss is about. I think it just comes down to lack of education about the difference between a laryngotomy and the oral procedure.

And it is the same as a docked tail or cropped ears, but actually has benefits to owners and neighbors rather than being strictly cosmetic. I would argue that cropped ears are actually more painful and harder to recover from than the bark softening procedure (the oral procedure). And even a true debark is probably less invasive and painful than a declaw where amputation of the tip of every digit is performed, yet a majority of Americans support declaws and are totally 100% against a debark....explain that one.

I don't really think a debark can be compared to a spay or neuter though and even though we all call it elective, I personally don't really think of it as such. While the health risks of neutering too young definitely outweigh the health benefits of a neuter in a male dog, in order to control the overall unwanted pet population it is much more realistic and practical to neuter males since one male can get endless numbers of females pregnant. And while spaying too early does have some negative health benefits there is a ton of literature out there that also proves that spaying after a female has her first heat and after each additional heat increases the risk of several health conditions such as mammary tumors and pyometra. I also have a very hard time believing that the majority of Americans are responsible enough to own unaltered pets. I'm sorry but I just don't have much confidence in the human race when it comes to responsible pet ownership, look how our shelters and pounds are overflowing with unwanted pets even when every pet that leaves the shelter is spayed/neutered and cities and counties are passing mandatory spay/neuter laws right and left. I am totally for spay/neuter laws and I think if you want your pet to remain unaltered you need to pay for it. There are just too many irresponsible backyard breeders and pet owners out there and its not fair to all the unwanted dogs/cats. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the "my neighbors dog got into our yard and got mine pregnant" sob story.

Permalink Reply by justine moeller on April 22, 2011 at 9:53pm

I agree with you Melissa 100% in regards to spaying/neutering. I live in a city where 50,000 pets are abandoned every single year, a province called the puppy mill capital of North America and where owners own there pets for an average of two years. This is not right and I will promote spay and neutering until the pet population is under control. 

Debarking is barabaric, again like I said as a last resort in order to save a life then ok. But a breeder doing it so she can continue to make a profit off dogs while being respectful of neighbors or save herself a headache, ha, sorry, not convinced this is a reputable  or responsible breeder. Again, this is my opinion. Debarking has NO place in this world. I know you didnt do this to your dog and there may be no negative results from it in your dog, I just find it so irresponsible for a breeder to do it because she has too many dogs and can not tolerate barking..or the neighbors cant or whatever.. Normally the puppymill dogs in Quebec are debarked. Why? Because the breeders cant handle the amount of noise... the similarities and selfishness astound me.

 

As for declawing, it is becoming much for common for a vet to refuse. We own  a declawed cat (adopted this way, would NEVER do that to my cat) who has some behavioral issues and paw problems as a result of the declawing. More people are also becoming aware of the issue and problems created with declawing. 

 

I own a breed that is traditionally a docked tail breed. My dogs are rescues though and and one is undocked and one is partially docked. I will only own rescue corgis and however they come to me I accept them. If I were to purchase from a breeder I would never use a breeder that docks their tail. 

 

If a dog was bred to bark, who are we to alter that for our own convenience and especially for profit, although I understand not all breeders bred for huge profit. When it comes to neuter and spay - this is not for my own convenience, it is for the lives of animals lost every single day due to overpopulation.

 

I am going to step out of this debate right now because this is something my mind can not be changed on. :) I will take a look at the articles that were posted as well.

Permalink Reply by Beth on April 22, 2011 at 10:49pm

Ok, well I am convinced she is both reputable and responsible.   She also does Corgi rescue.  We will have to agree to disagree.  I think "barbaric" is probably a bit harsh, though.  Objectively speaking, the surgery is not at all barbaric.  And nine house dogs does not exactly count as a puppy mill.

Permalink Reply by Beth on April 22, 2011 at 10:46pm

Melissa, I do have a problem with declawing as it is now often done:  a routine procedure done to kittens at the time they are spayed/neutered.  Declawing is a major amputation on multiple limbs.  It can cause ongoing problems with pain, it greatly alters a cat's ability to jump, and it can make cats more prone to aggressive biting.  I would cap nails before I would declaw.  I have never had to deal with a destructive or aggressive cat, though.  I would not want to see declawing totally outlawed but I do wish there was more education that declawing is actually amputation of the first joint and not just removal of the claw.  I think if more people knew that simple fact it would greatly reduce the procedure.

 

I agree that population control is needed, absolutely.  I also know that intact females are prone to infections and those can be deadly.  However, again if you look at surgical sterilization of people vs pets, it's clear that complete hysterectomy or castration are not top choices for humans!  Vasectomy is an alternative for dogs, but not one many people look into because, frankly, most people hope to reduce the marking and territorial behaviors (and sex-seeking behaviors) frequently observed in intact males.   We do use surgery to alter behavior all the time, and it's highly encouraged by humane organizations.  In horses, intact males of most breeds are not rideable by amateurs and gelding is routine.  

 

I don't think debarking should be a common resort for all but the worst cases for pet owners.  I'm not so quick to judge what people who keep lots of dogs for whatever (legitimate) reasons do, though.  I also realize that some dogs can be in situations where their frequent barking causes real problems (people forced to relocate to an apartment, for instance) and that option should be open in those cases too. 

 

I personally have a much bigger problem with ear-cropping, because it's not just the surgery but the weeks or months of follow-up ear-"setting".   I wish more Corgis were left undocked, but have no problem with true working dogs being docked;  I've seen the bloody mess that becomes of a fully tailed dog's tail when he runs in heavy brush all the time.  It's kinda messy.  

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4
• Next ›
• Page