Minimal Vaccinations
I am becoming more and more in favor of holistic animal care or "natural rearing." I started out making small changes, a holistic kibble, adding enzymes and antioxidants, etc. I now am feeding a grain-free holistic kibble (raw food about 20% of their diet due to cost and availability in my area), as well as adding in probiotics, etc. My Corgi's allergies are now non-existent (they were not very bad to begin with) and my Aussie's as drastically reduced. What's more, my Aussie who used to pick up every little virus everywhere he went, has not had one problem (*knock on wood*) since I have made these changes. I attribute this to his immune system functioning better (and I truly believe it was functioning at at reduced capacity before thanks to the vet that prescribed him antibiotics 4 times in 6 months).
I have also been doing a lot of research into the minimal vaccine schedule. In fact, a lot of holistic breeders don't use any vaccines, or use nosodes instead, and say their dogs fight off illness better than vaccinated dogs. I can believe it, but I am hesitant to take such a big leap. I am interested in hearing from anyone on this site that has chosen to responsibly not vaccinate or operate by the minimal vaccine schedule that Dr Jean Dodds set forth. Specifically, have you run into any problems attending classes at your local dog training clubs, going to day care, entering trials, etc?
I have also been doing a lot of research into the minimal vaccine schedule. In fact, a lot of holistic breeders don't use any vaccines, or use nosodes instead, and say their dogs fight off illness better than vaccinated dogs. I can believe it, but I am hesitant to take such a big leap. I am interested in hearing from anyone on this site that has chosen to responsibly not vaccinate or operate by the minimal vaccine schedule that Dr Jean Dodds set forth. Specifically, have you run into any problems attending classes at your local dog training clubs, going to day care, entering trials, etc?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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That's why I am happy that my vet does the three-year protocol, with no vaccines by age 10 or so for cats (not sure for dogs).
He goes to conferences and stuff all the time, and I trust his advice. I was surprised to find that there are vets who are still giving the distemper/parvo every year.
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Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on
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It's not just vets. I've seen rescues refuse to place dogs in families if all the other animals in the household do not get yearly vaccines. I've seen hospitals and therapy dog programs insist on yearly vaccines. Many vets, even though they know perfectly well that yearly vaccines are in no way necessary, will push them in order to get people in every year.
Yearly checkups are a good idea. Yearly vaccines are NOT. Vaccinating for everything we have a vaccine for is NOT. Dogs do not need corona vaccine; lepto is useless and has a huge side effect profile; and hundreds of dogs die each year from reactions to rabies.
It's one thing if an owner has done the research and really understands the issues and chooses to do a vaccine that would be considered non-core. It's quite another when those in authority, whether that's a vet or a trainer or a rescue group, go tell people to do medical things to dogs with little to no evidence supporting them.
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There is a different lepto one out that vaccinates against the more prevalent straings:
http://www.labbies.com/lepto.htm
"New Leptospirosis Vaccine Immunizes Against L. grippotyphosa and L. pomona
Fort Dodge now offers the Duramune Leptospirosis vaccine that immunizes against L. grippotyphosa and L. pomona serovars as well as L. icterohaemorrhagiae and L. canicola . This vaccine has been formulated through the new subunit technology that uses only the antigen component of the organism (that will produce an immune response) instead of the entire organism. As such, subunit vaccines greatly reduce vaccine side-effects that occur with higher incidence with bacterin-based vaccines while providing durable protection from the disease."
I realize it has its risks and therefore there is controversy, but I would not go so far as to say it's worthless.
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Lepto vaccines protect only for a few months. No matter which serovars it contains, after a very short amount of time it no longer works at all. But no vet ever tells you that you're going to need to come back every three months, six at the most, if you really want any protection against lepto in the environment. Instead, they push it as part of the combo shot that is given every three years. So your dog will get the vaccine, which is known to cause tons of side effects (to the point that many breeders will no longer honor health warranties if you get the lepto vaccine for your puppy), and three to six months later the dog is completely unprotected again, if he was ever protected in the first place.
Which is a paragraph-long definition of "worthless," for me as an owner and a breeder. I give puppy buyers literature on lepto symptoms and tell them to insist on a test if they're at all concerned, because prompt treatment is the key to recovery. I tell them to say no to the vaccine, unless they're willing to take on the responsibility and the risk associated with doing the vaccine correctly (2-3 times a year).
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Gee, Joanna, I'll just tell my vet that all those conferences and courses he goes to at Cornell or U Penn are worthless and I won't consider his advice because someone on the internets told me something different, so it must be true. I mean, why even bother with advanced degrees when we can just cherry-pick which sides of what we read and decide for ourselves what to do?
Believe it or not, I actually am familiar with the fact that vaccines for bacteria are somewhat self-limiting in effectiveness compared to viruses. I am perfectly capable of going on line and reading the results of the studies that actually measure side-effects in peer-reviewed experiments, and the serious side-effects are quite low.
Moreover, lepto is treatable but since it tends to cause little things like, oh, kidney failure, the treatment can be expensive and leave the dog with permanent damage. It has something like a 30% mortality rate in treated dogs (lepto, not the vaccine) and an even higher rate of causing permanent organ damage, and I live in an area where my dogs walk EVERY DAY in areas where there are the sorts of wildlife that carry the disease. There was just a big outbreak again this year in New York.
Further, I know it's shocking but there are other people out there who also have a lot of experience with dogs who have looked at all the same evidence you have and reached a different conclusion. Things are called "controversial" because there are differing opinions, not because they are definitively "bad" or "good."
My vet does not do tons of vaccines or hand out prescriptions for this or that just to get you in the office. As I said, my 16-year-old cat has not had a shot other than rabies since she was about 10, and my dogs get their regular shots every three years instead of every year. My vet went to Cornell and regularly attends continuing ed classes and goes to veterinary conferences, besides reading the journals. I also take medication that leaves ME immuno-compromised, so forgive me for preferring to vaccinate my critters for diseases that can readily move to humans, even if the vaccine has some risk.
This is NOT the lepto vaccine that's part of the combo. It's the separate lepto four-way and they've done studies that show it does greatly minimize the risk of getting the disease. I have a friend at work who thinks anyone is crazy to get a flu shot and I get those too (again, because I'm immuno-compromised).
So I appreciate your opinion, but stand by my original statement and will continue to follow the advice of my vet, who does not "push" anything but tells me what he suggests and why and then leaves it to me to decide.
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Oh, and our breeder did not tell us what vaccines to get or not to get. She gave us the records of the dogs we got, showing what shots they'd had, and then suggested we follow the advice of our own veterinarian going forward. She said they are all a little different in what they recommend, and while she does her own vaccinations (except for rabies) we should work with our vet. Which is what we've done.
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Ok, I just checked TDI's website, and they require a 1, 2, or 3-year rabies shot administered by a vet, but for other vaccinations all they require is an INITIAL SERIES for distemper, hepatitis, and parvo. No mention of needing annual shots.
Now, how that translates to competition or training clubs I don't know, but a thought would be that you might use that type of info to back up your position if you are going to try to change some organization's mandatory vaccination policy.
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Permalink Reply by Alice on
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I've never really questioned the need for vaccinations until now. After reading everyone's comments it makes me wonder if vaccinating yearly for everything is indeed the best decision. In Az, the DA2PP and Bordetella are given yearly and rabies every 3 years (accept for the first year when it is given only one year apart).
I thought at first that all the dogs I had growing up were fine but then after thinking about it I realized that I am 99% sure that my parents did not keep up with their vaccines. Of course they did for the first year or two but after that I don't think they did. Either way, those dogs were fine.
I was reading a post on this site http://www.petbuz.com/Read/News/Articles/Dogs/25.php about what is in the shots. It is very shocking but I have to ask, why are they in there? Surely the creators of the drugs are not just trying to poison our pets so do we know what purpose these ingredients serve? Poisons are used in medicine all the time. Digitalis is a very plant but it is also used in treating certain cardiovascular conditions. What about Arsenic; a well known poison but also a treatment for many things from Ulcers to Leukemia?
How do you decide which shots are necessary and which are not? I am against being a guinea pig for new drugs such as the H1N1 for humans as well as the flu shot for dogs, but these other vaccines have been given for many years. Some of the long term side effects are scary though which leaves me torn as to what is right for my pet. I don't feel that I have enough information to make an informed decision. Of course I can ask my vet but I have a feeling I already know the answer. He will likely recommend that we keep on the normal vaccination schedule. We're going in Saturday for Finn's one year boosters so I guess we'll see what he says.
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There's actually no such thing as "In [state] it's given yearly." There is no legal requirement for ANY vaccine except rabies. What you're running into is the practices of a certain vet or the requirements of a certain groomer or trainer. Those are, unfortunately, often completely unconnected to veterinary reality.
I don't worry as much about the very small amounts of preservative in the vaccines as I do about the effects of the diseases themselves. Vaccines work by giving the animal the disease, just a very mild dose of it. So when you give a vaccine with distemper, adenovirus, parvovirus, corona, and lepto, the dog's body is responding to all those diseases at once. And plenty of vets add in bordatella, rabies, Lyme, even Giardia at the same vet visit. It's a tremendous strain on the body, even if the dog doesn't show it, and dogs are immunosuppressed for some time after a combo vaccine.
Because of the way vaccines work, it makes sense to give as few as possible as long as the dog is protected. We know beyond a doubt that the duration of immunity for the viral vaccines is much, much longer than a year; probably lifetime but at least seven years. And we know that for many dogs there's zero danger of some of the viruses. Corona, for example. Some of the other vaccines (Lyme, Giardia) don't do a very good job of protecting the dog and the protection wears off quickly. Some (bortadella, lepto) are only effective for a few months and, at least in the case of the lepto, cause a huge number of side effects.
The way the best vaccination protocols are designed is by determining which vaccines are safe, effective, and necessary. Those are known as the core vaccines and should be given to every dog, but only as often as actually needed. The core vaccines are parvo, distemper, and some add adenovirus to that. Rabies is also a necessary vaccination but should not be given at the same time as the other vaccines. The other vaccinations should be weighed against the actual danger to the dog and used correctly and with knowledge of the limitations of the vaccine. If you're going to give a lepto vaccine, you're not protected unless you do it twice a year; one of the biggest reasons lepto is so dangerous is that vets don't think of it when a dog is sick. They treat for something else or for the symptoms and don't test for lepto. If you're going to give the Lyme vaccine, watch very closely for side effects (which can be severe) and get it every year AND still test every year. And so on.
There's no one right vaccine schedule for every dog. When I sell a puppy I give the owners my recommended schedule and as much information as possible but some choose to do much less and some choose to put in place some of the other vaccines. I don't have any problem with decisions made with knowledge and after the owner has been given all the information. I have a HUGE problem with vets or trainers or boarding kennel owners telling dog owners that such and such a vaccine is "required in this state" or trying to scare them into giving vaccines or giving vaccines in such a way that they're effectively useless but can still inflict damage on the dog.
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I don't think anyone claimed that the vaccination schedule I mentioned is the law (other than rabies of course) it's more the general guideline given by vets, the humane society and other shelters as a whole. When I took Finn in for his puppy shots, no one told me what he was being given or asked my preference. I only knew what he was given by looking at the shot record they handed over. Granted, when we did puppy classes they did require proof that he was current on vaccines but I don't know what vaccines specifically they were looking for.
I believe the DA2PP is canine distemper, adenovirus type 2, parainfluenza, and canine parvovirus, is that correct? I saw that some combinations include Lepto and Corona but I think they specify that.
If a vet such as ours gives a combo like DA2PP, should we be asking for them to be given individually? Will most vets accommodate that request and how important is it that they be given that way? All of Finn's puppy shots were given as a combo.
You mentioned that Rabies should be given separately and I read that as well. Is it common practice for vets to give it separately or should we specify that? I don't want to seem like I'm challenging our vet's competence when we go in this weekend but I want to make sure that Finn is properly taken care of.
Something else I read said that the shots are given yearly because without testing titers, there is no way of knowing when the dog is actually due for a vaccine so every year was a safe estimate. A lot of people opt to give DA2PP and rabies every three years.
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Permalink Reply by Sky and Lyla on
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Every bit of research I have done by reputable veterinarians recommends that if you are going to do vaccines they need to be given separately (one disease per shot) and only one vaccine/disease per 4-6 weeks. If you do them a shorter length apart, then the body won't get any immunity benefit because the immune system is already in drive focusing on the previous one, and will automatically wipe out anything else without developing any immunity. This window gives the immune system time to process the first and settle down and be ready for the next one. However, if you are giving shots every year, or even every three, it looks like a lot of vets in favor of the minimal schedule are suggesting that since there is already a built up immunity, the body just sends out antibodies and kills the virus in the vaccine immediately. Basically, there is no benefit whatsoever. And yet, we are risking our animals having a reaction every time they have a vaccination.
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Human children (and adults--- tetanus/diphteria) get combo shots all the time. There has been some controversy, but most independent studies show little increased risk with combo shots.
The guy who proposed the MMR/autism link was already working on a separate measles vaccine at the time, from which he stood to receive financial gain.
Your explanation of how the immune system works doesn't quite jive with my understanding of it. They have done antibody tests after combo vaccines, and the body does in fact produce specific antibodies to the different viruses.
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