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Permalink Reply by Edison on March 8, 2010 at 11:57am

This is pretty typical behavior. Sometimes it's just sheer puppy excitement about what's going to happen next, other times they think you're playing. (I bet this is what's happening with the shoveling.) We found that the best way to deal with it was to teach Edison specific commands, namely "place" (walk to the left, head even with human knees) and "stay" (exactly what it sounds like). "Stay" is pretty easy to teach, and keeps Edison out of the way whenever something hazardous is going on, but "place" was more challenging. We could only get Edison to pay attention to where we were actually going (as opposed to where he thinks we're going) by repeatedly making about turns or similarly unpredictable movements in training sessions (with leash and lots of treats!).

Other than that, let your dog learn the consequences of her actions- to a reasonable limit, of course. If she observes that humans will stop whenever she appears under their feet, she'll never have a reason to quit, but if she finds out that the feet continue moving, she'll learn to get out of the way.

Good luck! :)

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Permalink Reply by Alice on March 8, 2010 at 6:54pm

Finn has always been very bad about this too. He does it to us and anyone who enters our home and after working on it for a long time he's listening better. Stay and Get Back have been the best commands to get him out from under foot.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on March 8, 2010 at 7:04pm

I think Kerry is right about it being misplaced herding behavior. I hate to say it lest it sounds wrong, but mine have learned to stay out from underfoot by being accidentally stepped on or kicked while I was walking a couple times. I dunno, I just sorta figure it's the dog's job to stay out of my way. :-) I never intended to trod on them or walk into them, but if I'm in the middle of something and they are underfoot, well it just happens. I don't advocate doing it on purpose, though!

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Permalink Reply by Carla on March 8, 2010 at 8:52pm

I should have been more specific - outside in particular, it is definitely NOT herding behaviour (I've seen her herd before, and this isn't it). She REALLY likes to play chase (and being the chase-y, not the chaser) and when I'm outside doing something, it seems like she's trying to get in front of me to turn whatever I'm doing into a game of chase (where I'm chasing her around the yard). From taking puppy obedience classes, and just from past experience, I know that her thinking "chase" is a viable game for us outside is a terrible idea, because if she ever gets out of the yard, she'll run off and never come back. It's already incredibly difficult to get her to come over to you when she's outside, because she thinks EVERYTHING is a bloody game of chase. However, I don't know how to get her to stop doing this, and it seems like a self-reinforcing behaviour because she's always running in front of me and turning whatever I'm doing into a game of chase. I try to avoid "giving in" (so to speak) by walking in the direction her "chase" game is going, but sometimes there's literally only one way for me to walk and it's towards her. It's even gotten to the point where sometimes I'm going into the house (through our deck doors) and back out through a gate in our backyard so that she doesn't think I'm chasing her. But if I make too much noise coming back in the yard, she runs over to the gate, waits for me to come in, and then runs off like I'm chasing her!
Even if I leave her outside for a minute while I go into the house, she'll wait by the (all-glass) deck door to see when I come outside, and then start running off the second I open the door. It's a self-reinforcing behaviour - I can't not walk through the door to go outside.
I just want to walk around my back yard without her constantly thinking I'm chasing her and trying to make everything I do into a game of chase. As well, it's quite frustrating because, while she'll happily come up to me in the house or while she's on-leash, she WILL NOT come over to me in the backyard unless directly called over to do so (like with a recall). At all other times, she's in "chase" mode and on guard thinking I'm going to start running after her at any minute.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on March 8, 2010 at 9:12pm

Ah, that is tough.

I think to some degree she will probably outgrow it. I think if it were me, I would do a couple of things:

1) I would try to drain some energy with non-chase games, like chasing a tennis ball and some long walks. But I know, at that age their energy is unlimited and it's almost impossible to tire them out. Then I think if it were me, I would maybe

2) Not let her loose outdoors if I was occupied with other things. If you limit her outdoor free time to times when you are actually focusing all your attention on her (with games other than chase, or short obedience sessions) she won't have the chance to keep doing it. As you said, it's likely self-reinforcing.

Sometimes the best training is avoiding the triggers. As she gets older, a couple things will happen: her attention span will improve, your obedience work should advance, and she will not want to play 24/7 like she probably does now.

One fun thing we did with Jack (who also had limitless energy at that age) was teach him the name of all his toys, starting with his favorite one and building from there, so if he was just being a pain in the arse I could direct him towards more appropriate play by sending him off on the hunt for a toy. I still do that now, in fact. It sounds to me like she's looking for a way to use up her mental energy, to be honest.

A third thing you can do is when she does this chase-seeking behavior, ignore her, but then the minute she turns her attention to moving towards you, instead of away from you, you reward her by calling her to you to engage in a favorite activity or ask her for an obedience command and offer her a treat. This may mean always walking around with a favorite tennis ball or tug toy or bag of small treats in your pocket. Which also goes back to #2 above; only give her outside freedom when you can devote your attention to working with her. This will (hopefully) teach her that running away gets her ignored completely, but looking at you means you are more likely to pay attention to her. As her behavior improves, you will switch to random reward and only if she does something you ask her to first.

You are right, this is dangerous behavior if she gets loose. Good luck!

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Permalink Reply by Carla on March 9, 2010 at 1:01pm

"What is wrong with this?"

If she ever gets out of the backyard, she'll run into the street and never come back! Or worse, get hit by a car!

She loves playing with other dogs and I would love to take her to an off-leash park, but I fear that she would never let me put her leash back on once there and that she would simply run off and never come back. This behaviour is limiting the possibility of fun for both of us.

And if you combine this with her outrageous, over-the-top, insane excitement at meeting new people/other dogs (literally, she has pulled so hard on her leash to get to another dog she's made herself throw-up) it's a very dangerous combination. She becomes so uncontrollable when meeting other dogs on walks it's ridiculous and if she got away for whatever reason, I'm afraid I might not get her back.

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Permalink Reply by Carla on March 9, 2010 at 1:04pm

Can you elaborate? How do you do it on purpose and how would you clearly demarcate the boundaries?

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Permalink Reply by Beth on March 8, 2010 at 7:20pm

I wanted to add that I have taught Jack "Excuse me," though I didn't do it intentionally. I think I started when he'd be near me on the couch; I'd say "excuse me, Jack" and then get up and dump him off me. And if I was walking or cleaning and he was in my way, I'd say "excuse me" and then promptly scoot him away. So now if I say "excuse me" he steps aside for me. Really your dog should back away from you if you walk towards them closely enough, but I give him the courtesy of letting him know if I'm not maintaining an obvious course (when I'm sweeping, for example, and moving in circles). I'm currently working on it with Maddie too.

Remember, top dog walks where top dog wants to walk, and all other dogs clear the way. Never walk around your dog; go over or through her. And if she does not clear out fast enough and gets bumped with your leg, don't act sorry. Dog's don't understand "I'm sorry." They see it as deference to them, which means they see it as they had the right to block your path and you are apologizing for getting in their space.

A long "stay" would be helpful to teach, as would a lot of off-leash heel work to get her focused on watching where you are going and following, rather than going ahead.

Good luck! They sure are quirky little dogs.

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Permalink Reply by Alice on March 8, 2010 at 11:23pm

Finn tries to get me to case him too. He'll grab a toy and trot in front of me looking back over his shoulder and wagging his tail. I taught him "go". I point in any direction and say "go and he will move that way. When his prancing along in front of me or getting underfoot at any time and tell him to go the "stay". Sometimes I'll have to repeat this one or two more times before he gives up and lays down. I think it just takes a while for it to sink in that I'm really not going to play at that moment or I really don't want him under my feet while I'm trying to load the dish washer. He minds me better and better and he gets older. He still has room to improve but I know he'll get there.

I too know chase can be a dangerous game but he has fun with it so I've gotten him used to chasing and being chased. If I am chasing him then I turn and run he'll come after me. This would come in handy if he were say running for the street, I could redirect him by getting him to come after me. Even if dog has never been chased, most will run if you are running at them which is why you are never supposed to run after your dog should it get out off leash. This is where emergency recall comes into play. I was walking Finn one day and there was a young boy with two dogs who he was not in control of and should not have been walking alone. Before I knew it one had slipped it's collar and was running at Finn. I blocked Finn not knowing whether or not the dog was friendly and then came the boy running at the dog and yelling so of course the dog bolted and ran into the street (thankfully there was only one car and they were paying attention). I stopped the boy and told him to stop chasing her and kneel down and call her. She came up and when she wasn't looking I grabbed her. Thankfully both dogs and boy made it home safely but it could have gone very badly.

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Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on March 9, 2010 at 4:04pm

I'm with Kerry on this one. She's being a herding dog, except that if she was trying this crap on a cow she'd be sent flying and not try it again; she'd learn to come in only as close as she needs to in order to move the animal. You need to teach her that herding humans is not a contact sport.

Walk into her. Do it sixteen times a day. If you see her lying down, deliberately walk into her. Shuffle your feet a little so she doesn't get kicked, but you want her to start FLYING backwards when she sees you come into her personal space. Right now she doesn't have the tools to do the right behavior so she's getting confused and feeling scared because you get mad. When she has the tools, she'll do what good herding corgis do, which is act like a seething mass all around you but never actually touch you.

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