Comment

Comment by shelley power on July 15, 2010 at 2:39pm

ok listerine it is!! hahahaha and cool mists 2xday... lol sheez will listerine work in MY unruly hair I have too much hair!!
Gawd listerine smells .. maybe I should get a different flavor hahahahahahahahaha

Comment by shelley power on July 15, 2010 at 2:36pm

Candace- My bad you are righto!! IS OFA offering.. but it is on the AKC website SO sorry mis worded! THANK YOU for that Sometimes my typing goes faster than brainLOL and sorry if I led anyone to think it was concious effort to gauge us.. not at all just as a test /cost doesnt tell us much useful info and could easily have results work the wrong way.
Cindy,
You are better at writing than I YES there is so much more could be at stake if we select to avoid this particular gene with so little known.. Is interesting and never ending set of things to think about! Because of the "type " of gene etc.. Much moret to be learned yet.. and I certainly don't know as much as I would like to, again I think at this stage it is great fodder for all to discuss and follow for the future.. Wish I was a scientist sometimes..)).

Comment by Wind Dial on July 15, 2010 at 2:01pm

Cindy I also forgot to mention other family history with bros, sis, aunts, uncles in all the same area's of information we try to keep in mind when breeding dogs. I have also been to Carmens seminar so sort of know about those stick dogs.

Comment by Wind Dial on July 15, 2010 at 1:56pm

Also, I do test for DM, whether others do or don't is up to them. I know there is more research to be done but for time being I know where my dogs stand based on current research and perhaps when they discover the trigger I will adapt it likewise. Right now the current test is just one thing and note I said "one" thing among many used in making a breeding decision. It is looked at as a whole on how well these two dogs compliment each other, this includes the various aspects of conformation, temperament, OFA/PennH results, CERF results, vWD, DM, sometimes markings trying to avoid mismarks, and even fluff factors. Eventually we will have so many tests available to us there will be no way that one dog can pass them all with flying colors that we won't be able to exclude for one disease or another. It will be a mix and match of priorities for that particular breeding which is almost where we are at now. OFA charges $65 for the DM test which isn't bad considering the price on the other independent labs like VetGen and OptiGen. I do it probably more for my own curiosity than anything.

Comment by Cindy on July 15, 2010 at 1:32pm

I always want a really good reason to skip a show, other wise I get bummed and usually kick myself for not entering and going.

Russ babies :0)

Comment by Cindy on July 15, 2010 at 1:31pm

Listerine---an old grooming trick from my poodle friends/handlers. They never use just plain water in their spray bottles. The only plain water bottle I use is when we go to group and I want to make sure to have some to spray in their mouths or on their pads.

Don't use a lot, just a little-1-2 oz. It's great for the coat and skin. Not sure why but it works. I never run a brush or comb through a dog unless I give them a little spritz first.

I worked with a toy/herding handler for many moons. Meet a lot of his friends and other handlers and picked up a lot of cool tricks. And yes, I can do a topknot in a poodle, no-I learned under duress and no I will not ever own one of those things.

Comment by Wind Dial on July 15, 2010 at 1:30pm

Shelley, I don't think AKC is offering this test, at least I havn't heard anything of it. OFA is the one handling it, not AKC unless things have changed in the last 2 weeks since I ordered one. AKC isn't reaping any benefit from this test. Perhaps OFA but really in all honesty, this is a very affordable DNA test compared to vWD and PRA's so they aren't exactly price gouging folks either.

Comment by Cindy on July 15, 2010 at 1:28pm

Right, the only way to truely diagnois a dog with DM is a post-mortem spinal biopsy. That's where the real research comes into play. Which is not related to AKC in anyway at this time. The test and research are coming out of the one of the Universities. Per a post on Showcardi-l by Kathellen Mallory(I think that's who it was) they are now looking at the mutation further to determine what is the factor(s) that cause full blown DM.

As with any genetic testing, it's a tool. You have to have lots of other information besides your dog's own testing to make a valued decision. Siblings, parents, aunts, uncles. Carmin Battaglia's book Breeding Better Dogs, talks about that a lot in his stick pedigree.

The other thing to consider, since not much is known about how one gene affects another, keep remembering that in many cases, if you jump the gun with just the basic information, you could be affecting other things. Many times one gene has multiple affects--multiple diseases. So eliminating one, could cause issues where another problem errupts. And in DM we don't know enough yet. But it is best to be proactive in that keeping familiar history on your dogs-knowing what happens to litter mates, 1/2 siblings, parents, aunts, uncles.

I mean take the simple fluff gene. Cardigan people jumped on the band wagon when it was available and reliable for pembrokes. But we got a lot of false positives because the CWC has additional mutations that cause all the various coat types, besides a true fluff. A lot of dogs were eliminated from breeding programs that were in deed non carriers.

Comment by shelley power on July 15, 2010 at 11:06am

OH sorry left out that the mutated gene is found in dogs that DO NOT SHOW ANY hint of DM AS WELL

Comment by shelley power on July 15, 2010 at 11:05am

Cindy- I agree , from what I am reading, from a lot of sources, Akc dna test is largely just identifying a mutated gene that seems to found in dogs that show signs of having the disease DM.. ( largely a diagnosis made by ruling out other things) and there is no scientific data to say that this gene is causitive for the disease, just that it seems to be present in many dogs that have been diagnosed with DM.So although I think it would be great if we all "tested" IF and I stress IF all these dna's were used to further the study of this crippling disease. but as of now it seems to me just another way for AKC to make money and the result ##have gene /dont have gene# to be used as a sort of marketing tool for "breeders" as in big spalshy graphics about champion bloodlines, "fluff free" and SUCH.. DM result at this point doesnt really tell us much , and I am beginning to think the procedure behind OFA radiographing has faults in its grading system as well... lot of possibility for false pos.. I am thinking about Penn hipping mine as HD is so common in pems... I would like to have an accurate hip assessment, and I dont think one position , unnatural xray can give me a good analysis of this.. Hip laxity has different perameters in different breeds, and OFA grades all according to the same offset. so poor fair good and excellent.... again, CIndy, is a rating of "fair" OFA reason to limit the gene pool?? and this rating is affected compared to what? Normal freedom of movement for a pem? or arbitrary standard of "normal". Penn hip films are taken in several perscribed and manipulated positions to affect the joint in a more as the joint is expected to perform in a certain breed or body type, and measures against percentages of outside the perfect anatomical structure based on that dog ( poor explaination)... and graded against normal values based on what dogs history and what bred for.. there is anatomy behind that to long to put here but will try to find the article from uof pennsylvania and post.. took me a whole day to read and understand ..
I am for lots of health testing where the testing leads to usable info.. But NOT for blind acceptance of a procedure , without lots of research and study on my part and an understanding of what really this testing is telling us..
I certainly think we should for example try to have our dogs dna part of an ongoing study of DM ... I know a couple people who have lost dogs to this and it isnt a pretty way to see a dog spend his golden years... But.. at this point, kinda like the OFA HIPS, I would hate to see this single test for a mutated gene which may or may not have anything to do with getting the disease, be taken and be another "false" postive. There are certainly dogs showing signs of DM that dna says dont have the mutated gene. so IMHO this isnt enough to claim DM-Clear" or free.. And certainly knowledge of this mutated gene MAY affect breeding program in that maybe we dont want to breed 2 dogs with the mutated gene.. until we know more..
.. but like the disease, if we have bred dogs and lines and shown no evidence of symptoms of the disease, do we want to limit the gene pool?? I think the evidence is not convincing enough yet..
Interesting stuff this.. I feel like a sponge smetimes.. you get a bit and suddenly you have more questions than when you began..
So great food for thought and comments:).

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