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Comment by Cindy on January 12, 2011 at 12:00pm

Another comment on chest structure.  Using Marg--which I totally forgot about this part. 

At 14 mos old Marg was in an accident on the way to a dog show.  She broke her left upper arm in two places and one fracture across her elbow.  Due to the hardware(which you can see on her page in the website), she had to hold her leg out from her body and slept really odd on her chest or back.  Depending on her mood and how bad she was pouting.  At that young age, not all of her bones were solidified.  She prior to accident, had a wonderful deep chest, with a correct shape. 

Following the removal of her hardware, we noticed that her chest had actually flattened some. 

What I'm trying to say here is that outside influences-exercise, food, accidents, can affect the structure of the chest/shoulder.  But you have to take that into consideration when doing evaluations and not let those types of factors influence your decisions one way or the other.

 

Comment by Wind Dial on January 12, 2011 at 11:56am

I don't know if I'm qualified to make an opinion, not on the dogs themselves posted but breeding, selecting and growing puppies in general. I think it is a crap shoot at best knowing what they will grow up to be like.  I think that evaluating at 8-9 weeks gives you the best odds but I think those odds are still not fool proof by a very wide margin.  In dog breeding, even the very best odds aren't that great.

Comment by Cindy on January 12, 2011 at 11:55am

I am so far from an expert, will never in 30 years consider myself and expert, but having a strong horse background and a working knowledge of how parts of any sort of animal work together, change, adjust, some of this is just common sense.  Parts are parts--heck, try evaluating a 2 week old clydesdale!  The change that comes when an animal is 200 lbs at birth vs the 2200lb giant is unreal, BUT, the basic structure of the beast stays the same.  I need to find some of Toast.  He went from a forest gump body to....a forest gump body, 6 years later.  His sister(same sire, 1/2 sister dams), was a pretty filly and turned into a pretty mare.  Too stock horsey in the head as a weanling, same at 6 years old. 

Bitches--what happens is like I said before, the spring of rib can increase based on how the bitch carries the litter.  Spring can from on outward appearance, increase the size(not the depth) of chest.  It's like mechanically inserting a wedge and cranking the rib cage open.   So I guess what I mean to say is that it's not in the nature of the dog to increase that spring of rib unless phyiscally they have to to accomodate a litter of puppies.  Why then should you consider that trait when breeding, because it's not really in the make up of the dog to do it without some outside force--does that make any sense at all?

Example from before--Abbey and the Dirty Dozen.  She has no more spring of rib or anything other then lack of hair at this moment and a few oversized tits that get really cold in this weather, from having that many large puppies.  Her 1/2 sister Marg, carried less puppies, but always, always carried them up in her ribs, very high up in her ribs.  She developed better spring of rib after her two litters.  Do I consider then that is a good trait or a better trait-no.  She didn't naturally come upon it.

 

Comment by vicky hyde on January 12, 2011 at 11:32am

i love these learning discussions. it's great that teresa put up the variety of toby's pic's so we can see start to almost finished. i like this dog alot. i think he is striking to look a. i know he is a little leggy, but there is a lot of other stuff i find nice. i am just starting to really pay attention to he cardigan. hey, i have pemmies, what do you expect. all these dogs change so much, no one can really be 100% on what they are going to turn out like. that's what makes it all interesting and challenging. i have also heard over the years, that breeding your bitch can bring them down a ting in height. has anyone else ever heard that. it didn't work on jack's mom. cindy, think of me when you have that baked potato soup. that is like my all time favorite. these wintery days are just made for yummy foods like that. and, the boys enjoyed their carrots and celery with a tad bite of roast last night. it will be better today. most foods are better the next day. take care

Comment by Cindy on January 12, 2011 at 9:48am

Okay, I feel the need to say this a little differently.  Puppies at 7-8 weeks have the structure in their fronts and chests that they will have their entire life.  Period.  I'm not talking about length of leg, pasterns etc.  Cardigans-egg shaped with the broad end down, pointy end up.  The depth of the drop of the chest can be seen at that age and that's all it will be.  What happens in what many say is the dropping of the chest, is actually the filling in of the overlying tissue that a dog will get as it matures.  Muscle can make a dog that elbows out as a puppy, pull it's elbows in later on, but it's still not correct.  The front chest structure will not be affected by a bitch having a litter of puppies.  How the bitch carries them can affect the spring of the rib.  The BUT here is that that is akin to an accident that a dog might have that reshapes a bone, etc.  That change in the chest of a bitch who whelps, can not be considered when evaluating a pup when considering natural growth patterns. Heck, Abbey with 12 huge puppies, has no more spring of rib, drop in chest or what not then she did before. 

Example:  a dog we showed against a few years ago in the classes had a classic fiddle front.  Very apparent as a puppy, but they continued to show it.  As a 2 yr old, the dog looked to have a very correct front with elbows tucked correctly into the rib, correct drop of the legs down the through the chest, etc.  One judge put their hands on the dog, got a funny grin on her face, asked them to down and back, then asked for the dog back up on the table again.  Ran hands over the front, under the chest, along the shoulder, down the ribs to the legs to feel the tuck.  Got another grin on her face, said thank you and went to the next dog.  Needless to say, they got dumped at the bottom of the class that day and it's because this judge took the time to look past the soft tissue to the underlying skeleton.

Tobi had a nice though slightly flat chest as a puppy.  His depth at 8 weeks is about where you want it.  What the leg issue is if you look is that he has extremely long pasterns-you can see that as a puppy. He won't be able to get enough muscle in his chest and shoulder to compensate for that.  Ella, his sister, has much shorter pasterns.  Also his point of shoulder and point of keel are level, but much too high--look at the side photo.  Those two points should be lower.  Though level, which is good, too high, which with the long pasterns, is what gives him the very long legged look.

Comment by Teresa Kannard on January 12, 2011 at 2:16am

Here are Tobi's 8 weeks, 10 weeks, and 2 years photos. He definately does not have the same proportions that he did as a 8 week old puppy still!  Where did the legs sprout and were did his chest go?  Connie just said to wait and he is from an old maturing line and that he will drop chest and fill out more as he ages!  he is from a slow developing line.  Compare him to his sister Ella and she is quite more filled out then him , lower in leg, and she has not had puppies yet!

Quite a difference!

Comment by shelley power on January 11, 2011 at 8:03pm

heyyy vicky.... you buried yet?? .... turn in to an eskimo yet???LOL Ill call ya!!

Comment by shelley power on January 11, 2011 at 7:59pm

I think Chip is growing pretty consistently.. at this point.. and I feed a tad different  maybe than most.. I prefer to see pups  "lean" and growing slowly so that  as they grow and are conditioned, they start to develop muscle weight and  and not so much "baby fat" ..  My vet concurrs, that  slow steady weight gain at this age allows bone and  muscles and ligaments  to grow in a way that  provides for   consistent growth without putting  too much weight on before the skeletal and muscles can support..    she says its a process of maturing.. how they process nutrition is somewhat hereditary, but   tho  CHip looks lean and thus may appear longer in photos,  as he develops, the structure  supporting his  build will fill in..:) Like Cindy says.. chest is   chest and  at this point the underlying structure is looking real good the  "shape" we will see will and should fill in around that structure.. ( excerpted from my vet( aka the god) instruction on the proper development of particulary long low dogs:))))   the ears!!! lOL in my pics they do look disproportionately large.. b ut   not so much without a camera closeup!!LOL I think he will carry his ear size nicely:)  ..so .. all in all , I am quite pleased with how he is devoloping .. a year from now we can go back and look at week to week pictures.. and maybe the changes will be more apparent?

 oh and we have some new big boy teeth, front top and bottom... beautiful  and so far perfect bite")

Comment by shelley power on January 11, 2011 at 7:39pm

ok, been flitting around like a fart in a mitten.. cleaning houses, dogs, training, been super sick all week... so playing catch up.. LOLOL  then clothes dryer quit( just as the electriciaan said it would after having been exposed on bottom to water  in the mini flood of our basement) so worked to day then moved new dryer in...and in between trying to help friend  with rehab of income property:)Phew!

So.. I apologize for the  largeness of the photos , and the relative poor quality:( mind you I am standing virtually on top of the  lad not more than a foot away LOL so  like zoom  in..LOLThink that exaggerates things a bit ...    but all in all, I take the photos weekly mainly so we have a record of the growth and changes since  Chip came to Minnesota.. 

..next page..lol

Comment by Cindy on January 11, 2011 at 5:00pm

Moose and Abbey's littersister who lives in the Cities, has a reverse cowlick that runs between her eyes to the tip of her nose.  I'll have to see if Janet or Pam can get me a close up of it.  If I remember rightly, one of the Dirty Dozen has a double cowlick between it's eyes, but I can't remember which one it is.

Black markings just tend to fade as a dog matures.  No idea why.  Frank had a big black mask when he was a pup but now it's very faded.  Tri's in pems might start out as BHT, then turn to RHT as they grow.  I think it's neat to watch the markings change like that.  Fairy dots do the same thing.  Moose's used to be fairly seperate but now part of it touches the side of his blaze.  Ticking in cardigans becomes more pronouced as they mature also.

Ummmm, we did beef and barley soup this weekend.  I'm going to make chicken soup tonight and looking forward to baked potato soup later in the week.

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