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Comment by Beth on July 3, 2009 at 9:06am

One other thing: we did no puppy classes at all. We were able to socialize using other options, and I did all his training at home. I took one class for TDI, because I had no way to get him used to wheel chairs and the like at home. He passed his CGC/TDI on first attempt. If you can train and have plenty of chance to socialize, puppy classes are not necessary, and can be problematic if your trainer's methods don't match your own.

Comment by Beth on July 3, 2009 at 9:01am

I know this blog is a bit older, but I stumbled across it when reading your post about your sick Lyla. OMG, alpha rolling ALL the puppies as PRACTICE????? On rare occasion a very dominant dog might need this kind of strong arming. Keep in mind that even The Dog Whisperer is usually dealing with difficult cases, often ones that are on the verge of being put down and other methods have failed. He doesn't alpha roll every dog that disobeys, and would never do it randomly just to demonstrate the method.

The Monks have taken back the method. Most of the time, when dogs are fighting (as opposed to playing), if one dog is rolled and showing submission, it put itself there voluntarily. It's a Beta Roll, not an Alpha Roll. If one dog puts another onto its back by force (the true Alpha Roll), this can lead to the "Top Dog" ripping the throat of the other one--- in other words, if you alpha roll, your dog does not know that you are not going to try to kill it. Moreover, a roll is a very, very severe correction. You can ruin trust that way; dogs know when the punishment outweighs the crime. It would be like grounding your teenager for a year for being 5 minutes late on curfew.

I mistakenly tried holding Jack down once when he was a pup (before I researched the method more closely), and he fought me like a demon. I never used that method again. It would have broken him.

Comment by Bev Levy on June 3, 2009 at 12:05pm

Over the years with various dogs I have used 4 different trainers. I only had one I did not like and I left and got most of my $ back.(he had a strong bias towards big dogs and was no help with the corgis. Grrrr) I also love to watch Dog Whisperer and Victoria and read about training methods.(love The Other End of the Leash). They all (yes even Cesaer) tailor their training methods to the dog. The "throw down" is not appropriate for all dogs. One of my first teachers won a silver medal in the International Obedience Trails with a Golden that had been turned into her as untrainable. She helped me with my little stinker, Sparty. He was my 1st corgi and a challenge from day one. While she encouraged me to be very firm, she never wanted me to use that because he would have fought to the end. He turned out to be a good boy even if I did spend the down stay portion of class on my knees holding him down for several weeks! The only time I have seen a trainer be rough with a pup was with a German Shep about 8 months old that would attack her owner when she corrected him. Even then the instructor held the pup in the air until he submitted. I have found that we can't think as a human when training. Giving a treat to get a behavior does not necessarily mean the dog learns to be bad to get a treat. It means when they stop it they get a treat. Anyway sorry for the book but I bet you can find a class that would be better. I would never pinch a puppy!

Comment by Cindi on May 22, 2009 at 12:35pm

Some dogs do well with treats, some don't The idea is to use the lure only until the pup gets the idea and then gradually move them to a less fattening (lol) incentive. Most corgis will do ANYTHING for food. I've tried to use other methods. Or, when I did use food, use something really, really healthy and not a lot of it.

As for PetSmart trainers, I was one. And I hope to be one again. I love the positive-base of the program. And I would encourage prospective students to monitor classes prior to signing up. Most PetSmarts have two trainers (unless it's a really small store). And, even though people poo-poo the idea of store training, you'd be suprised at the qualifications of some of us trainers!

Hang in there!

Comment by Cindi on May 22, 2009 at 11:07am

As a trainer I can tell you to run...do not walk...to the nearest exit and do not return. I understand that there are "stubborn" dogs out there. (I can't stand that word.) But, most dogs when motivated properly and positively will respond beautifully. I would definitely demand my money back unless you were well-aware of this person's teaching methods prior to class. If you continue along, you will be angry and disappointed and your pup will not benefit from the experience. If you want to talk further, please feel free to contact me. I'll help you any way I can.

Comment by Karen Stasky on May 22, 2009 at 8:45am

Find another trainer now!-the alpha rollover was developed by the Monks of New Skeet-they took it back because if not used right, it creates a fearful dog-I've trained dogs for over 30 years and I learned leash correction, alpha rollover-it works on many dogs-Cori it did not!! He was a "over enthusiastic" STRAY that was in the shelter from hell at 3 months old. He was a very hyper dog, but everthing was done with this big happy grin! Leash correction did not work in any way with him-he didn't care-painful jerks on the leash went to prong collars-he still could have cared less-I had to learn a different way and learned with a great trainer, positive reinforcement-That worked! long story, but the other way would have broken his beautiful spirit-we do agility and freestyle now, and I teach positive reinforcement training and I see how making training fun works sooooo much better than training with force-having your dog work willingly with you makes a better doggy family member, than one that does what you ask out of fear-Cori taught me a better way-

Comment by Bart Phelps on May 22, 2009 at 2:16am

Well, Putney sauntered out into the middle of the ring and did a huge poop during her first day of class. She flunked obedience school. She also threatened us (curled lip etc.) many times as a pup and we would just flip her like a cheese omelette, and I would get over her on my hands and knees and just stare at her until she broke the gaze. She eventually got the idea the humans were the bosses (sort of). At ten years old she and her brother still do whatever they want, but they are polite about it.

Comment by DR, Nala & Simon on May 21, 2009 at 11:56pm

The point is that if you do not feel comfortable, you are not going to have fun neither your dog. I will suggest to yes, ask for your refund, and check in your vet office if they can refer you to other trainers. I am pretty sure you will find one that will make you feel with more confidence. Your enthusiasm will help Layla tremendously. But don't let this experience discourage you from taking the classes. The benefits are extraordinary, and Layla's bond with you will be stronger. Plus the added benefits of socialization and potentials "playdates".

Good luck. Let us know when you find your trainer. Oh! BTW, if you have a PETCO or Petsmart close by, they usually have classes too. If you want, go and check them out, they actually allow owners to observe before deciding to take the classes. Therefore, you might find a trainer or a trainer style that you like.

Comment by Jamie on May 21, 2009 at 11:47pm

Aw, that's terrible that the class was so disappointing. Good for you for standing your ground and not participating in the exercises you didn't agree with, though!

Comment by Sky and Lyla on May 21, 2009 at 11:45pm

Sue, I recognize that different people choose different training methods for their dogs and I respect that. I made the decision when I got my first dog, that I would not use the "dog whisper"-type methods with my dogs because I do not agree with the psychology behind them. The most current canine research just doesn't seem to back it up... at least from the research and scientific journals I have read.

If I had tried those methods with my Aussie, I am certain I would have ended up with a fearful, timid, submissive urinating dog. Those methods are just not good with all dogs, in my opinion. What I didn't not appreciate was the instructor acting like I would always have ill behaved dogs because I choose not to do the rollovers. I feel like if I'm paying for a class then they need to teach a bit more universally or tell you beforehand what methods they prescribe to.

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