Dogs Fighting~HELP
Hi~
I wrote in for advice back in December regarding my 3 dogs. I have a 12 yr old Min Pin that I rescued when he was about 1 yr old. He has always been insecure, skiddish and has separation anxiety. We got 2 Pem puppies almost 2 years ago. They are a brother-sister duo. I did not know at the time that it is not a good idea to take 2 from the same litter. Our 3 dogs got along great in the beginning and I felt as though the pups were helping to keep my old guy young as he was behaving like a pup again. During Ginger's 2nd heat cycle the puppies (who were 14 mos old) attacked our min pin. My mom was babysitting for us so I don't know what set them off. Our min pin survived but suffered over 2 dozen puncture wounds. We called an area "dog whisperer" for some advice. We changed the way we fed all the dogs and became more firm with them as far as getting on the furniture, etc. At this time neither of the pups were spayed/neutered b/c we my husband was interested in breeding them (not with each other, obviously). Since the attack happened while Ginger was in heat, I thought maybe that had been the cause. I made an appointment to neuter the male Pem. Our Min Pin was neutered shortly after we got him. The dog whisperer told me not to spay Ginger because she said it would take away all of her female hormones and make her more "male" and aggressive. So we didn't. Everything was fine for many months until Christmas when another fight happened. Coincidentally, Ginger went into heat again. I was convinced that it was her hormones making her so aggressive and had planned to have her spayed in March as the vet told me to wait a few months. Unfortunately, several more attacks have happened since December. And Ginger hasn't always been the one to start it. The dog whisperer has mentioned to me more than once that my Min Pin needs to be medicated for his anxiety. I am looking into that option. She said that he is feeding a lot of negative energy into the pack. I am still planning on making an appt to have Ginger spayed in the next few weeks b/c frankly, I just can't deal with the mess of her being in heat on top of everything else. Breeding is out of the question obviously-we have our hands full. It wasn't something that I felt we were qualified to do anyway. Okay, so finally I will get to the point. I need advice. I am just torn up about the idea of having to get rid of my pups which is what my husband thinks we should do. I will do anything to make this work, however I feel so tied down. I cannot do anything around the house without either putting the pups in their kennels or carrying my min pin everywhere I go. I can't leave them alone together. I am so uncomfortable that I have muzzled my pups when I am here alone so that if they do start a fight I can break it apart with out getting bitten. I am a nervous wreck if I leave the house and leave the dogs with anyone b/c I don't feel that anyone else will protect my min pin like I do. I would appreciate any input you have as to whether or not you think this can ever work or if I have to find new homes for my pups. Re-homing my min pin is not an option. He's old and he's been here for me through 2 difficult pregnancies where I had to be on complete bedrest. I apologize for such a long post-I wanted to include as much info as possible. Thank you for reading.
I wrote in for advice back in December regarding my 3 dogs. I have a 12 yr old Min Pin that I rescued when he was about 1 yr old. He has always been insecure, skiddish and has separation anxiety. We got 2 Pem puppies almost 2 years ago. They are a brother-sister duo. I did not know at the time that it is not a good idea to take 2 from the same litter. Our 3 dogs got along great in the beginning and I felt as though the pups were helping to keep my old guy young as he was behaving like a pup again. During Ginger's 2nd heat cycle the puppies (who were 14 mos old) attacked our min pin. My mom was babysitting for us so I don't know what set them off. Our min pin survived but suffered over 2 dozen puncture wounds. We called an area "dog whisperer" for some advice. We changed the way we fed all the dogs and became more firm with them as far as getting on the furniture, etc. At this time neither of the pups were spayed/neutered b/c we my husband was interested in breeding them (not with each other, obviously). Since the attack happened while Ginger was in heat, I thought maybe that had been the cause. I made an appointment to neuter the male Pem. Our Min Pin was neutered shortly after we got him. The dog whisperer told me not to spay Ginger because she said it would take away all of her female hormones and make her more "male" and aggressive. So we didn't. Everything was fine for many months until Christmas when another fight happened. Coincidentally, Ginger went into heat again. I was convinced that it was her hormones making her so aggressive and had planned to have her spayed in March as the vet told me to wait a few months. Unfortunately, several more attacks have happened since December. And Ginger hasn't always been the one to start it. The dog whisperer has mentioned to me more than once that my Min Pin needs to be medicated for his anxiety. I am looking into that option. She said that he is feeding a lot of negative energy into the pack. I am still planning on making an appt to have Ginger spayed in the next few weeks b/c frankly, I just can't deal with the mess of her being in heat on top of everything else. Breeding is out of the question obviously-we have our hands full. It wasn't something that I felt we were qualified to do anyway. Okay, so finally I will get to the point. I need advice. I am just torn up about the idea of having to get rid of my pups which is what my husband thinks we should do. I will do anything to make this work, however I feel so tied down. I cannot do anything around the house without either putting the pups in their kennels or carrying my min pin everywhere I go. I can't leave them alone together. I am so uncomfortable that I have muzzled my pups when I am here alone so that if they do start a fight I can break it apart with out getting bitten. I am a nervous wreck if I leave the house and leave the dogs with anyone b/c I don't feel that anyone else will protect my min pin like I do. I would appreciate any input you have as to whether or not you think this can ever work or if I have to find new homes for my pups. Re-homing my min pin is not an option. He's old and he's been here for me through 2 difficult pregnancies where I had to be on complete bedrest. I apologize for such a long post-I wanted to include as much info as possible. Thank you for reading.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Sam on
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Dear Lisa,
This is a most difficult situation. I am sorry that your "dog whisperer" encouraged you keeping your girl intact. I believe if you had followed your thoughts at that time you would not be in this situation. Keeping intact dogs is most difficult and causes many problems. I know very few that keep several intact and do not have issues. It is a matter of being quite observant of upcoming heat cycles. This is generally a major time of issues with many bitches.
Sadly this has been going on for quite some time now and the spaying will certainly be helpful but not the end all cure. If she generally gets along when she is not in season then she will probably be much better.
Many corgis have high prey drive. When the excitement level of dogs gets heightened then corgis often are reactive. It has now become a pattern and I am guessing the male corgi jumps in immediately. The min pin doesnt have a chance.
You may do well have a baby gated room and alternate times when dogs can be out. Dogs that have been in full fledged fights rarely give it up. Good luck to you.
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Permalink Reply by Chris on
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Do they fight all the time if in a room together? Do they ever play together nicely with no aggression?
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Permalink Reply by Mariana on
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To be entirely honest, I don't like the idea of medicating an animal. I think it's too much of a blanket-like solution. But I do know a similar case that was seemingly helped by medication. My boyfriend's mother has a corgi who attached her elderly dog when he showed weakness. They gave him an anti-anxiety medication and he hasn't attacked any dogs since. However, it may not just be the medication. My boyfriend's mother also went out of her way to put some more structure in the house. So it's hard to tell what calmed the corgi down - whether it was medication, structure and discipline, or both.
I think you should hire another trainer for a fresh opinion. Are you exercising the dogs enough? Boredom increases anxiety and perhaps all 3 dogs are feeling bored and unstimulated.
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Permalink Reply by Sam on
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I would second the exercise. Excess energy leads to anxiety and aggression. If you can try to find the time to walk all 3 of them (get your husband to help of course and most certainly not at the sametime) I would try doing that until either you or the pup can't continue on. A tired puppy is a happy and completely complacent puppy in my opinion.
I would not continue listening to that dog whisperer honestly. Even if your pin is nervous (which he has the right to be now) that doesn't mean that the corgis should be justified in their feelings to go after them. This seems like they are getting away from remembering who the clear leader of the house is (whether it be you or your husband) or as said above they just have way too much energy pent up. Best of luck to you and please keep us posted.
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Permalink Reply by MagnoliaFly on
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Find a new trainer! That dog whisperer is not giving you quality advice as you can now tell and unfortunately your poor baby got attacked because of it.
You should look on the ADPT website and then inquire as to what methods they have treating do aggression.
http://www.apdt.com/po/ts/us/default.aspx
I highly recommend the article on How to Choose a Good Trainer so you feel better informed in your decision when you find a new one.
You may also be asked to see a veterinary behaviorist in case they may need medication to help with the behavior modification training. Contrary to popular belief, medication can sometimes help a dog get started with training so his mind can focus better and he isn't so anxious or reactive. It isn't meant to dope a dog to the gills, just give them good footing to get started on the right path. It is a tool for you to use so you can reach the vital part of his brain, the limbic system, that controls fight or flight response and make interactions with your dogs associated with positive things instead of fight responses.
Let us know how it goes. It is unfortunate you got to this point. :(
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Permalink Reply by Lisa on
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Thank you all so much for your responses. I sincerely appreciate it. To answer Chris' question, no the dogs do not fight constantly when in the same room. I am with all of them during the day and most nights. I am just extremely careful now in that I don't go anywhere in the house without picking up my pin and taking him with me. My min pin would like to play with them and I have seen him try to initiate play but I stop him and scoop him up b/c I am too afraid of what might happen. I will admit that they haven't been walked much the past few months because it's winter here and it's been very cold. I know I need to get back to that. Walking them separately could pose a challenge for me because I also have 2 young children. Once a day I can get it done most days but more than once per day is really pushing it for me. Previously it was up to me to get all of the dogs walked and it became very overwhelming. Hopefully, I can get some help from dh. I have considered talking to another dog behaviorist for a fresh opinion-I think I will definitely do that now. I also still plan on having Ginger spayed in the next few weeks. Again, thank you for reading and responding. I truly appreciate it. I plan on exhausting every option before any of these dogs has to leave my house. They are family to me and I feel that when I adopted them I made a commitment to them to give them a good life. Realistically I will probably only have my min pin for about 2 more years so and he also means the world to me. I just want his last few years with me to be good and I need to keep him safe.
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Permalink Reply by Nicola Porter on
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Lisa I am very happy to hear that you want to do everything you can to help your furkids. I feel your pain and frustration with the load you are carrying right now with the kids and the furkids and I wish you all the best. I have no advice to give you but wanted to give you support and to say that you are a shining star in your furkids life.
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I'm sad to report that my Min Pin was attacked again this morning. I have to take him to the vet this afternoon because he's limping pretty badly. The corgis got both of his back legs and the bites are deep. I have left a message with a dog behaviorist in the area and I have an appointment with a dog aggression person tomorrow. I am so sad and torn up over this. I feel like such a failure. I have made so many mistakes with all of these dogs-I wish I had known more....as much as I want to be hopeful that I can get this to work I just don't think it will. I am so tired and I just don't feel that I can do all of this on my own. I feel so bad for my kids. This is just such an impossible situation. I apologize for such a negative post I am so down at this moment.
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Permalink Reply by Sam Tsang on
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I am so sorry to hear that Lisa, I can imagine how painful it is for you. Is there anything we can do to help?
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Thank you Sam. I wish there was something but I appreciate you just listening and being supportive. It truly means a lot to me.
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Permalink Reply by CaptainCorgi on
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I'm so sorry to hear this. I've read your previous post before and have always thought of you and to hear that it is still going on, man. I can imagine that you are at your wits end. I think definitely getting your female corgi spayed is a good idea. Some people say that it can make them more dominant because they produce more testosterone than estrus(?) when they are spayed, but all in all, I think a dog that doesn't come in heat will make the males less competitive against each other. They might even be signaling signs to each other that you may not be picking up and your female corgi might be noticing these signs and does something about it, in this case attacking your min pin, because I think when they get into a fight, the male corgi is obviously going to choose his sister's side because they are a pack together. So it makes it extra worse two corgis going after one dog.
It is true that a more dominant dog will attack a weaker dog that displays weakness. Or your corgis, or one of them, might be insecure as well, and seeing your min pin display weaker energy might make them feel better about themselves if they can dominant a weaker state of mind dog. My corgi use to be so insecure when she was little and other dogs use to attack and dominant her all the time and whenever that happened, if she ran into a weaker state of mind dog, she use to dominant it, but now that she's gotten older, she's more confident about her self and doesn't try and dominate insecure dogs.
Perhaps if you try to up the rank of your min pin, like feed him first before the corgis and stuff like that, maybe your corgis will see that he is a higher rank. Also, if they are in the room together, I know it is hard, but try not to think of them attacking each other. Try to think like a dog. Dogs forgive each other and live in the moment. If they are all in the room together being nice and settles, live in that moment. Then if something arouses, obviously correct them then.
Those are just some suggestions, I don't know if they are right or will work, but I'm just trying to think of anything that might help you. I think it's a really good idea though that you are getting dog behaviorists to help. Good luck and I hope everything turns out well!
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