Puppy behavior or unfit for Therapy training?
My new Pem Corgi, Selphie has been with me for 2 days now and I'm beginning to get a little concerned. I have always (ALWAYS) wanted to train a working dog. My current adult dog (ChiXYorkie neutered male), Peanut, I had tried training, but it turns out he's much too leery of strangers to be any use to anyone but me as my baby. My mother bought us this puppy because she was a small female, my dog also doesn't care for large or male dogs. I'm concerned that she may end up not being usable either because she's mouthy. She pulls at my hair, chews my fingers, clothes etc. She's only 8 weeks old so she's not "determined" yet. I've been yelping and seperating from her when she does this and she seems to catch on in the IMMEDIATE after moments of the yelp, she will calm down and lick, but then minutes later 'forget' again and try to play rough, I do NOT play rough with her and insist that she calms down before she gets any love from me. My adult dog has also been gently reminding her not to bite hard, when she grabs for his collar and accidentally grabs skin he'll use his mouth and gently push her away.
I know that puppies do these sorts of things naturally but I'm wondering if she will grow out of this rambunctiousness and be a fit therapy dog or do therapy dog trainers specifically go out and find very very calm puppies to start with?
In other words what I'm asking is, since she acts like a "normal puppy" will she be a therapy dog, or should I have looked for the most "laid-back" and serious puppy? The reason I'm concerned is there's a LOT of puppies out there, but not many therapy dogs, so I'm assuming either the standards are rigorous or therapy training isn't as popular as I thought it was?
TL;DR, Can a "normal rambunctious puppy" mature to become a therapy dog, or do therapy dogs start as calmer puppies?
Edit: Regardless of her fitness, I will love her unconditionally. Believe me, if one can put up with 800$ worth of destroyed bedroom doors, doggy prozac and training for one's chixyorkie and still absolutely be head over heels for said dog, one can certainly put up with a "normal" dog. I'm just really hoping she'll be able to be a therapy dog, since 2 dogs is our limit financially and space-wise, if she doesn't cut it, I'll have to wait 15 more years for my therapy dog :(
Edit: Thanks everyone. I appreciate everyone's input, truely I do, I am going to go and find some fellow therapy enthusiasts here locally, consult trainers (again) find some therapy training books perhaps. I will also find out what's on the cert. test so that I can be sure to run her through everything. I AM excited about her becoming a working dog. The reason I'm so concerned is because of Peanut. He started out a shy little anxious puppy and I thought that he would become confident with work. Instead he's the most anxious dog in town, so I was just worried that her "assertive" puppy behavior would mean the same thing that Peanut's "shy" behavior meant. I am extremely passionate about using Selphie for some kind of work, I've wanted to do this since forever ago. I really respect people who train their dogs to become more than bed warmers on legs and will work hard to do the same, be it Therapy or agility or whatever.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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My male Corgi Jack was a shark as a puppy. He bit HARD and did not know how to play without using his mouth. He got his TDI certification at just under 2 years of age and is a very reliable therapy dog. My biggest problem with him has nothing to do with his behavior towards people; it's that he tends to need to poop when he gets excited and he gets very excited when he visits, so we have had an accident and I need to watch him like a hawk.
Nipping and biting is normal puppy behavior, and I guarantee that virtually all therapy dogs out there nipped and bit as puppies.
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Permalink Reply by Kristy Watkins on
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Thank goodness!!! I was beginning to panic! Lol, Silly me. I've just been smitten with working dogs since I first learned about them and had ALWAYS wanted one. When I got my chiX I was excited, but soon learned he was one big ball of nervous, he has seperation anxiety, big dog phobia (to where he will literally go after and attack random perfectly innocent larger dogs), stranger leeriness. I was heart broken. Now I really want Selphie to work out.
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Yep, I would just worry about raising a sound, stable, healthy puppy and let the therapy stuff work itself out later. The biggest thing you can do is socialize the heck out of her. Once she has her second set of shots, start taking her out all the time. Let lots of friendly strangers greet her, let her meet lots of sane and stable dogs (both puppies and adults). Make sure she meets kids in strollers and adults in wheelchairs. Get her used to a full range of normal noises and sights like ringing phones, umbrellas, brooms, etc.
No one can predict with certainty if a dog will be a good therapy dog. Some well-socialized pups mature into adults who don't like to be in leashed company with other dogs if they get jostled. I was in a TDI class with a Sheltie who seemed like a sure thing, and he bolted at the loud noise used in the test (even though he was ok with noises in class) and failed.
In my experience, slightly bolder more outgoing dogs make better therapy dogs in the long run as the quiet ones can get overwhelmed with the activity level in, say, a nursing home day-room. However, some of them need to wait until they are two or three or even a bit older to settle down before they are ready.
Good luck!
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Permalink Reply by Cindy on
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My first question is how many siblings did she have to play with? If left to play amongst themselves, a group of litter mates learns bite inhibition ie, how hard and when to bite, from each other. If she wasn't allowed access to her siblings or mother, many times she hasn't learned what is appropriate and it's up to you to teach her. Be consistent. The attention span of a puppy at that age is that of a fly. They will flit from here to there and forget things from one moment to another. What I have found that works the best is if they start bitting, substitue a bone or a hight value item for my hand or foot. I also leave the area, walk away, or put the puppy in an other area for a few minutes and ignore them. Watch a litter with it's mother some time and you can really see what she does to teach them about biting.
Did she have any of the puppy puzzle/volhard tests done on her to determine her working ability? That again is something that will give you an indication of what type of training or even if your puppy has the potential for being a working dog.
The other question I have is what is your definition of a working dog? For me, it's a dog that is active in the propose for which the breed origninated. In corgis it's multi purpose-herding, guarding, ratting, hunting. Performance events such as agility, obedience, tracking and rally can be added to that. And yes I agree, therapy work too but that takes a dog with a few other special talents. Even with my herd, I have some dogs that just can't cut the mustard, so to speak, when it comes to some events. Ones too noisy for herding, one too pushy. One loves to hunt, points and can be shot over. One is good as a therapy dog while another isn't good with kids because the fast movements get him too excited. Each dog has their own talent and it's up to us to explore it and find it.
I suggest before you get too concerned that your 8 week old pup is a wash out, sit down and write a set of goals for yourself and the dog. What do you really want to do? How long do you want it to take? What are you willing to invest in this activity? Then start researching as to what it takes to train a dog for the activity and lay out a map of how you propose to get there. Find trainers in your area that have worked with corgis(I find that very important) and a training technique that works for you.
Good luck and enjoy this age, don't get too worried about having the perfect dog immediately, they aren't born perfect, far from it. It's up to us to mold them and help their hidden talents come out.
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Eh, mine was with his litter til he was 10 weeks old and he was still a hard biter. The whole litter was rough, and the bite pressure that is ok for other dogs is significantly harder than the bite pressure that is ok for people. His litter was big and his mother was a very rough player, and he came to me biting hard. I was also raised with bird dogs who have "soft" mouths, so that was a bit of a change for me.
But he learned.
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Alright, to answer your (very helpful) post, here goes. My definition of a "working dog" is any dog who is trained to do something besides look cute and not eat the garbage, basically a "serious" obedience competitor, a "serious" show dog, herding, therapy, tracking, agility, flyball, etc. etc. Are all working dogs, they do more than the "average dog".
No she was given no test but a general observation of her breeder (who has bred corgis for 25 years) who said she was a very sweet little girl who didn't take any flak from her siblings (ie not a submissive girl, but not aggressive). She had 6 siblings, 5 males and one female. There were only three puppies "calmer" than she was and all were males. She was with them constantly up until I picked her up. She was with her mother a lot as well, but after weaning it became a little less frequent (2 or 3 times a day for an hour or two).
As for the amount of work I am willing to put into this, the answer is "a heckuva lot" I have purchased 6 dog training books (none about therapy dogs specifically though) watched hours of training videos and shows, sought advice (before I got her) from a couple of trainers, am considering persuing an actual career in dog training (getting NADOI or similar certification). I am very serious about dog training and if it turns out she is not fit to be a THERAPY dog, I will try to find something she's better at, but I would really be proud to have a dog that helps people in need rather than just an athelete.
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Here's something to think about. When I start my training classes, we also set a goal-what is your dog's job going to be? Just because someone has a dog that is "just" a house dog, doesn't mean that it isn't a working, thinking dog that needs to fulfill that purpose and needs to be trained to do that job. With that in mind, someone's house dog is just as much a working dog as those tracking, doing nursing home visits or going to obedience trials. Just a different sort of work. Though I will agree that I feel a true "working" dog is one that is an athlete working in a field such as herding, guarding, tracking, SAR, active agility dog or obedience trial dog. It's important to not dismiss a dog for the type of work it does, but look at the heart it puts into it's job.
My first champion cardigan is soon to be 10. He's retired from the show ring, the herding arena, obedience and rally trials. Though retired from the active ring work, he still is a working dog. He's now the official "farm" dog and takes his work very seriously. Hunting mice in the barn, alert barking at strangers, jail breaking puppies and taking them to the creek for a dip, herding ducks from winter quarters to the pond for a swim or being a couch warmer.
Keep up the good work! You've done a lot of thinking about the direction you want to go with your dog. Make sure to explore a lot of training options and programs. It's important to remember that a good dog trainer doesn't train the dog but trains the owner to train their dog. Also not every method works for every dog or owner. You have to be flexible and be able to read both dog and owner.
Nothing against any of the training organizations but one note on NADOI. One thing I look for in organizations that I am associated with is the level of commitment to continuing education that they provide or mandate in order to keep your certification with them. Once you join NADOI, you don't have to do anything other then pay your yearly dues to keep your member #. The reason I mention this is that I have known a person who trained for over 20 years that joined way back when. Her training methods were very outdated and she continued to use her association with NADOI until she retired, never once having to participate in continuing education, training seminars or what not.
As Sam suggested, get with a local Delta group and start working with them. Or catch up with a TDI evaluator and have them walk through a test with you or go along on a visit(dogless) to see what is really involved.
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Permalink Reply by Sam Tsang on
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Yes, some puppies do become calmer later in life, they may mature one day to become a therapy dog. It takes patience, dedication and daily practice, go to your local delta society and talk to the real owners and their dogs, they will inspire you and give you training tips.
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Permalink Reply by Mickey Kalish on
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I guess it really depends on the dog. I wanted Comet to be a therapy dog also, but 3 trainers that i took him to have told me that his herding instinct is too strong, and he will always want to nip to get his way. But the breeder that I bought him from ahad a 26 acre ranch with many animals, so he was herding long before I got him.
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Permalink Reply by Melissa and Franklin! on
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All puppies bite, and all puppies need to be taught not to bite. You can't really determine at 8 weeks old what your puppy is going to be as a 2 year old. It just depends on how much you have committed to that dog. I would have guessed my corgi at 8 weeks old was going to be impossible to train and a holy terror of an adult.....now at 1 1/2 he is the smartest dog I've ever met as well as the kindest, sweetest, and easiest dog I've ever trained. I had a German Shepherd that I trained for search and rescue and she was nervous and neurotic as a puppy but after 2 years of training she became a bold and brave search dog.
If you truly want to have a therapy dog, or working dog of any type, start now. At 8 weeks old they are old enough to join a puppy kindergarten class. Though you have read many books and watched many videos, you still aren't a certified trainer and you and your puppy would probably greatly benefit from a group class. Granted a lot of the stuff you will learn you may probably already know from previous books/videos/classes but the socialization your puppy will get will be priceless. Start young but don't expect too much, she is still VERY YOUNG. But it never hurts to get those classes started with local trainers just to introduce your puppy to working on leash, being around many people and dogs, and learn basic commands. Good luck.
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Permalink Reply by Michelle on
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Give her a little time. It sounds like you are so excited at the prospect of a therapy dog that you are forgetting that you have a 8 week old on your hands. Just sit back, relax do the things that you know to do to correct behavior and give that baby time to settle a little. You do not have to get certified tomorrow, enjoy! LOL. Corgi hugs, kisses and nipps. ^,,^
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Yep. With TDI, you can't certify til they are a year old. When Jack was a year, people kept asking when I'd take him to TDI classes, and I said "He's not ready." When he was a year and a half, people asked, and I said, "He's not ready". When he hit about 20 months, I finally thought he was ready and he did pass, though walking past a friendly dog was very hard for him as he wanted to run up and say "Hi!!"
I've known other people whose dogs were ready at 6 months and had to wait for the one year mark just because of the guidelines. So they are all different!
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