Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on February 28, 2010 at 3:25am

Here is information on the benefits of a high-fat, high-protein diet (which really should be interpreted as the detriments of a low-fat high-carb diet): http://www.americanwaterspanielclub.org/pdf/Health%20and%20Genetics...

High-protein diets actually help weight loss: http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/8/2087S

Are you asking for studies that show that dogs with immunodepression have a higher parasite load? Or for studies that show that diet is immune related? I have both.

Permalink Reply by Beth on February 28, 2010 at 9:41am

The top link talks about protein levels, DHA, carbohydrates and fat, but I don't see mention of raw vs kibble. Did I miss something?

It's also referring to athletes; if sedentary humans eat the same diet as athlete humans, they are in trouble. And if you feed low-work horses the same diet as high-work horses, there is even bigger trouble (founder, colic= dead horse). I honestly don't know if the same is true in dogs. However, I am just reading a book by the head of behavioral studies from Tufts that seems to indicate that high-protein diets in dogs with relatively low activity can cause problems.

I do appreciate the links, but it still doesn't seem to mention raw specifically.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the butt, it's just that (and I know you don't see it this way) I see people regularly taking huge leaps in logic when it comes to food.

Ok, and the second study was just what I was talking about referring to study size. That was 39 dogs. I follow health news pretty carefully, and I have seen many times when small studies in humans lead to funding for larger studies, and the study results hold up.

I have seen just as many times when small studies in humans lead to larger studies, and the larger study is unable to duplicate the results of the smaller study. One example I can think of is the vitamin E studies; small studies seemed to indicate a great benefit, but when they did large randomized studies they actually showed an INCREASE in risk for several chronic helaht problems. I had a couple doctors who went from recommending vitamin E to saying that perhaps normal doses were better after those studies came back (and I think there were two or three).

I was looking up diet studies in horses, and before they start recommending people change time-honored stable practices, its usually because of a big study. One colic study, for example, used over a thousand stables that each had a minimum of 3 horses. You are talking thousands of critters there.

A short-term study that shows a high-protein diet causes weight loss in 39 Beagles tells us little about other dogs, nor about the long-term impact of such a high-protein diet. Those types of studies may prove you right or wrong, but people should be cautions as to making scientific-sounding claims as to the vast benefits of a raw diet whilst not having any scientific information to back it up.

Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on February 28, 2010 at 12:28pm

OK, at this point I've provided a huge amount of scientific information on why high-protein, high-fat diets are better for dogs. Why don't you counter with some studies on low-fat, high-carb diets being better? As you said, talking about what you THINK might hurt or benefit dogs isn't the same as study. I'll take small studies; I'm not picky.

Permalink Reply by Beth on February 28, 2010 at 2:28pm

You provided two links, one to a short-term weight-loss study and one that talks about high-protein but doesn't mention percentages, and is specifically about performance dogs (which mine is not).

Regardless, I specifically asked for studies to back up the claims about the raw diet, vs. kibble. Kibble can be formulated (and is) with a wide range of protein/ fat/ carb profiles. I don't recall ever claiming a high-carb, low-fat diet is better, so it's a bit odd for you to ask me for evidence of a claim I never made.

If your links said anything about raw, I must have missed it so if you would be so kind as to show me where you found it, I will go back and re-read.

Permalink Reply by Beth on February 28, 2010 at 12:03pm

Here's a site that talks about parasite loads in wild wolves: it mentions in several cases where parasite loads increase as population density increases, as I said in a prior statement:

http://www.freewebs.com/alphawolfsabrina/diseasesandparasites.htm

And heart worm infestation is a big problem in southern populations of wolves (which are already stressed)

This is my final statement on the issue in this discussion:

To me, the two most appealing factors in a raw or even home-made cooked diet are the fact that dogs undoubtedly love it, and that you avoid the uncertainties of ingredient source to some extent (though even human-grade food sources suffer from frequent contamination, as we all know).

And to me, and this is just my own conclusion, the cons (uncertain nutrient levels, expense, inconvenience--- I don't even prepare my own food on many days--- possibility of increased contact with bacteria for myself, possibility of choking, and intestinal perforation, far outweigh the positives. That is just my own conclusion, and others reach a different one looking at the same information. I respect that. I can post plenty of links where wild wolves have high parasite loads, infection, disease, intestinal perforation from bones, and suffer from malnourishment to back up how I reached my conclusion, but that won't likely change the mind of anyone who has already committed to a certain feeding style. The other side of the argument has the wheat gluten contamination on their side, and there is no arguing with that.

However, I will always question when people make very scientific-sounding claims to have the evidence to back it up. Opinions are a dime a dozen, and everyone can find a learned person to back up theirs (I found lots of sites touting the benefits of a vegetarian diet for dogs, for example, making most of the same claims the raw proponents make about disease and the rest). But science is science. And saying "Wolves eat raw meat, dogs descend from wolves, therefore raw meat/bones is the best diet for dogs" is a hypothesis, not a theory or a fact. There are many ways to prove or disprove this hypothesis, and I would think with all the rich people out there who spend fortunes on various organizations, someone would be able to come up with a study and get funding for it. I would hope they would, but I don't think even that would settle the discussion.

To me, there are plenty of questions to the theory to begin with. Dogs have lived in domestication for tens of thousands of years and those who thrived on other foods were kept and those who didn't were not (throughout most of history, the average person had trouble getting meat for themselves, let alone their dogs). Wild canines live an average of 6 years or so, so many of the old age problems we see in our dogs don't occur in wild canines because they rarely make it that far. Wild canines can thrive on a huge variety of diets, including insects and fruits. Wild wolves, as mentioned, suffer from many serious health problems. Just because a wild animal has found a successful evolutionary niche with a particular hunting style does not even mean that is the ideal diet for that animal; if they survive long enough to successfully rear young, they are an evolutionary success story. For many, many species, domestic cousins or even zoo-kept individuals on zoo food live on average much longer and healthier lives than their wild cousins (the Smithsonian Zoo site says their wolves eat primarily kibble and can live to 17 years, while wild wolves live 6-8 on average, as long as 13). There is much that goes into the high mortality rate among wild animals and diet is only one factor, but it has always puzzled me that we try to mimic the life of an animal whose natural existence is typically brutish and short by our standards.

So those are all possible factors any scientist would look into and try to correct for when setting up a study to test the hypothesis that wolf diet = ideal dog diet.

I will continue to watch for studies that support these claims and am always open to changing food as new evidence becomes available. And I respect everyone's opinion, but if someone presents opinion to me as if it were fact, I will generally respond with a follow-up because that is just my nature. :)

We all love our animals and try to do what is best for them. I respect everyone's choices.

Permalink Reply by Ashley and Copper on February 28, 2010 at 4:41pm

The only problem with small studies is that they are not as accurate. Let's say we take 10 different dogs or even 10 of the same breed and perform a study feeding five raw and five kibble. Some of those dogs may thrive, some of those dogs may end up sick or malnourished. When it boils down to it, those dogs do not speak for every other dog in the world. Every dog reacts differently. I did not start the discussion to start a problem. I just wanted some opinions and so on and so forth. At the end of the day, If you want to feed raw food, Wonderful! If your dogs are healthy and happy and it works well for them, I'm happy for you. Truly, I am. The only thing I was trying to say after all of this raw vs. kibble came up, was that there is nothing concrete that says that one is better than the other. I choose to feed my dog Iams and veggies and fruits because that works well for the both of us. I do not work him; although, he does get PLENTY of exercise and is worn out daily! He seems happy and healthy and I'm happy for that. The vet says that everything is good and I believe that. It may work well for many dogs but like I said before, I don't have a wild animal. I have a domestic dog. I'm sure everyone can fight about what is better but I didn't walk in and tell anyone that they were basically feeding their dog crap or a number 7 on their list. I wish everyone the best of luck with what they feed their dog and I'm not here to judge. Like I said, if it works with you, Great! Have a good one everyone!

Permalink Reply by Ashley and Copper on February 28, 2010 at 8:41pm

ANDDDD There was just a recall on Nature's variety raw food diet. Not saying that there has never been a recall on kibble but just saying. That food ranked higher on the list than my pathetic number 7 food I feed my dog lol Sorry, I had to be smart, just my nature!

Permalink Reply by Aber, Ragnar and Kelso on February 28, 2010 at 9:40pm

Yeah, well, sometimes there's less than perfect conditions at a plant, which nobody can control. I've also gotten food poisoning at restaurants. Really reputable restaurants. Does this prove anything? And if you go to this website http://www.dogfoodproject.com/ you can find out all sorts of information about kibbled dog food that's far more reliable than Wikipedia (which you are absolutely right--it's quite dodgy as a source of information, although they claim to be trying to make it better).

When I go to all raw, I plan to get my ingredients from local farms instead of in a pre-processed bag, just so I know where the food came from. It's the same argument I use for why raw milk and unpasteurized cider are better. I would rather have something that was processed under conditions that all but guarantee cleanliness. When milk and cider are pasteurized, things like e-coli are killed. But how did the e-coli get there to begin with? Contact with feces, either on the udder or on the apple. Unpasteurized sources cannot allow foreign matter to fall into the product and then just heat it away. I expect the same standards with raw food and of course there are going to quality variations between brands and homemade. Nobody is claiming that raw food is all perfect and every brand and source is flawless and, conversely, that all kibble is filled with filth and bad ingredients. And there are far better kibbles out there than Iams, really.

If you're going to feed kibble, great. I feed some kibble too. It's quite convenient. They like it. It stores well. But I also give them yogurt, and wet food and some raw and vegetables as treats and freeze dried liver. Personally, I want to go to all raw, but I've never done it before and I want to make sure I work it into my schedule properly so I don't screw things up. I'll have to remember to thaw food for the dogs just like for our dinner, instead of opening a can and scooping some kibble. There's a convenience trade off--however, I'm so excited to think of zero-shedding, that alone has me convinced to make the switch :). In the meantime, I make sure they're getting the best quality kibble I can find them. I've heard far too many bad things about Iams (which used to be quite good apparently, but for some reason has declined in quality over the years--was it a buy-out? I forget) to ever trust it myself.

Permalink Reply by Ashley and Copper on February 28, 2010 at 10:00pm

I'm so happy you decided to post. I really am. I almost brought this up earlier but this conversation has gotten far too heated as it is. lol I was thinking about raw food being processed. I think it's great you are going to do it that way. I really was not against the raw food diet but when everyone got really snappy about it, it made me wonder. I did my own research and found nothing stating that raw was better than kibble. I don't think it's bad but like I stated earlier, I'm not going to do it and that's all I can say. I would also like to state that I live in a small town and the nearest pet store that sells anything higher than Iams is about 40 minutes away. I haven't had any bad experiences with Iams and it seems to work for Copper and did for Pooh. I just wish everyone would settle down about the whole discussion. I didn't realize nails and claws would come out on this. lol I also realize that everything including our food is not perfect but everyone seemed to be jumping down my throat about the type of food I feed Copper so I wanted to throw it out there that a better food was recalled as well. I realize nothing is fool proof, perfect or best. There is always opinions, theories, studies, research and so on. I was just trying to open up everyone's mind and maybe learn something along the way. I didn't know it was going to start a fight.

Permalink Reply by Beth on February 28, 2010 at 10:05pm

Ashley, I wanted to add that I know what you mean about being told you feed horrible food.... I have grown a bit used to hearing it though it still always strikes me as a little harsh.

I'm not saying I've never said anything to offend anyone, because I know I have, but honestly I can't imagine going on a public forum and coming out and saying "And everyone knows (Iam's, Science Diet, Eukanuba, etc) is crap." Would you walk into a steakhouse, order a salad, and say "My god, I can't believe people still eat red meat!." Would you walk into a cigar bar and loudly talk about how you can't believe anyone would smoke? I mean, even if people think it's awful, there are more tactful ways of sharing your opinion. Just my feeling, I dunno.

Things on the internet tend to get heated I think because people are so much more direct than they'd ever be face-to-face.

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