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Permalink Reply by Beth on March 18, 2014 at 9:55pm

I have read this article many times.  I agree with a good 90% of what is in there.  The part that always makes me cringe, though, is the bit about the Sheltie and the German Shepherds.

Unless the author is leaving out HUGE parts of the story... well, honestly a group of dogs attacking another one for walking into their personal space in a non-aggressive way is over the top.  And when she says the Sheltie should have laid down and submitted; well, when a dog sees itself as prey and is terrified, its normal response is to run.   My dog-savvy Corgi, Jack, has been in many situations where he has encountered leashed (and sometimes, unfortunately, loose) dog-aggressive dogs.  His normal response is to sniff the ground, look away, and try his best to communicate that he is not a threat.  But once he was charged full-speed by a much larger dog and he did not sit around to negotiate. He ran like hell (never saw him move so fast) right to my feet.   

I think the author owns the shepherds in question, and I think her own closeness to the situation made her fail to realize that her own dogs were not behaving appropriately either.  

Thankfully, we meet lots of people raising adolescent dogs around here who generally appreciate when their rude puppies are corrected appropriately by an adult dog.  And since there is a large group of very dog-social dogs around, novice owners tend to follow the lead of the group and when everyone nods and smiles and says "He's just telling the pup to mind his manners" the owner goes along with it.   I have, however, met several puppy owners who are so afraid to let their pups interact with other dogs that they never learn appropriate dog socialization skills.  

We recently ran into a young adult dog playing in the snow.  He looked like a coonhound mix and was about coonhound size.  He encouraged Maddie to chase him but kept being very deferential to Jack and, while playing, would periodically run over, crouch down and muzzle-lick Jack before going back to playing.  I kept trying to remember how I knew the dog and his people.  Then I remembered:  last summer, this family started showing up at the park with a terribly fearful, shy puppy.  They brought him at quiet times and he gradually warmed up first to the other dogs, then to the people.  As he grew, he got clumsy and once when running around he bashed hard into Jack.  Jack roared at him a little and the pup ran away, tail between his legs yelling "yi-yi-yi!!".   My husband tried to calm the pup but I said "let him figure it out."   We made sure we hung around until the pup got up his nerve to come back and greet the dogs a few times (much more politely this time).  And it was that pup, now grown, who was playing chase games with Maddie and remembered very clearly that no matter how excited he was, he should not run into his elders.  

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Permalink Reply by Beth on March 18, 2014 at 10:02pm

I should add, regarding the Sheltie store in the above article, that a dog who is giving a "correction" does not bite hard enough that the correctee requires stitches, as did the Sheltie.  I've seen dogs correct other dogs many times.  Sometimes it is very loud, and it frequently looks much worse than it is.  Sometimes the dog being corrected does not back down and a scuffle breaks out.  In no case have I seen a dog giving a correction bite so hard that the other dog needed stitches.  That is not a correction, and that is NOT good bite control.  Regardless of what the author of the otherwise excellent article says.

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Permalink Reply by Marcie on March 18, 2014 at 10:13pm

I cringed as well. The rest of the article helped me understand why Becca may be reacting the way she does. The dogs she lip curls at are being rude. I think she also has a large bubble.

I wonder if the lack of a corgi's tail makes it harder for some other dogs to read their body language.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on March 18, 2014 at 10:37pm

In broad terms, it helps me to think of dogs' interactions with other dogs in terms of their historical function.  Whether dogs like other dogs or not is highly individual, based on their personality and experiences and the confidence of their handlers.  But the manner in which dogs interact with other dogs can be easily understood in light of what the dogs are bred to do.

So we have working dogs, like German Shepherds and Dobermans.   Bred to work closely with a single handler, their ability to interact with other dogs was mostly not even a factor in their breeding.  They were bred to ignore other dogs while they worked, and are often dog-aloof.

Herding dogs are sensitive to motion and like to control space.  They tend to play best in small groups of dogs they know well and like chase games.  When excited, they can nip other dogs hard and tend to try to interfere when large groups of dogs start rough-housing.  They can be the fun police.  Because of this, they can annoy other dogs and some can be space-reactive.

Scent hounds are mostly bred to run with other dogs, including other dogs they have not met, and tend to be jovial with other dogs and not very sensitive to personal space. 

The water retrievers, like labs and goldens, need to not just tolerate but relish being slapped in the face with waves, crowded in a boat or blind with other people and dogs, and having winged but not dead ducks and geese hit them over the head with their wings.  Because of this, they tend to have very little personal space of their own and enjoy physical contact.  This means they will run into other dogs' space and may not respond to other dogs' corrections, and more sensitive dogs like herders can be upset by them.  I am not a fan of labeling this behavior as "rude" (though I regularly see that label on various dog forums).  The example I give is different nationalities of people:  the stereotypical reserved Englishman will greet you with a head nod and the outgoing Italian with a hug and kiss on the cheek.  The two styles of greeting are both acceptable in their own culture.  Neither is rude.  But the Italian would find the English greeting cold and the Englishman might be overwhelmed by the Italian's hug. One isn't right, one isn't wrong, but a good host would be mindful of the differences and make sure all guests were comfortable.  So should the owners of various dogs recognize that some are sensitive and some boisterous without labeling one as "polite" and one as "rude." 

Terriers tend to be on their toes and ready for action.  Generally, even well-socialized and cheerful terriers are more inclined to scrap than other breeds because they tend not to back down and I have, more than once, seen lovely terriers go from 0 to 10 in the blink of an eye.  Owners of JRT's are very mindful of this but for some reason it is not politically correct for owners of APBT's to want to acknowledge this.  Owners of powerful terriers need to be mindful that the prey drive has been carefully preserved in their dogs and can be quickly triggered. Someone mentioned a problem with a Wheaten.  We just saw a nice young dog-friendly Airedale that we know react by wanting to fight when another large dog corrected him.  I would not dub him at all aggressive and he's nice to our dogs, but I always monitor Madison's interactions with him very carefully because she tends to stare and can snark a little.  Both can be seen as challenges by well-socialized terriers, while well-socialized Labs tend to laugh at her. 

Again, every dog is an individual but the traits they have been bred for have direct bearing on how they interact with other dogs.

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Permalink Reply by Beverly Butler Redford & Tucker on March 20, 2014 at 11:46am

Thank you for your well thought out and clear explanation.  It makes a lot of sense that dogs have tendencies based on their historical functions.  The analogy about cultural differences was spot on.  Thank you for sharing.

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Permalink Reply by Diane on March 25, 2014 at 12:31am

Great description...the herding dog is spot on for Chewey! It's also funny because one of our dog owner friends even calls him the "police dog" when we go to the beach. And he definitely does much better in smaller groups of dogs he knows. I won't take him down to the beach if it's too busy with strange dogs (or if there isn't much beach because the tide is high).

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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on March 20, 2014 at 7:40pm

Adding to what Beth said, at dog shows it is not unusual for judges to ask to see two terriers "spar" . The handlers basically have their dogs face each other and sort of fake fight.

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Permalink Reply by Marina Holshevnikoff on March 24, 2014 at 12:42pm

I really liked this article, thanks for sharing, and all thanks for sharing your additions to the article.

Our pup Jerry is well into puppy socialization and seriously lacking grown up dog socialization.  It's so embarrassing on walks when Jerry is flat out RUDE to these gorgeous big dogs.

In our neighborhood, I've noticed that most owners with older dogs pull away immediately when they learn that he's a puppy.  It's a bummer, because even if they do get gruff, it puts him in his place.  Jerry likes to get up and get eye level with the bigger dogs which makes for VERY rude behavior.  I'd be fine if they growled a bit.

Anyway, we took him to the small dog park in our neighborhood yesterday for the first time and already he's learning, just after getting some feedback from older dogs.  I can already see improvement with how he assesses the situation and the dog before barreling in face first.

I'm trying to assure the owners that he's a puppy, pretty forward and rude, and it's okay if they tell him to back off.  Compared to the owners on the street, the owners in the dog parks are much more accepting.  Anyway, this article inspired me to take action with getting Jerry some appropriate adult dog feedback.  Thanks!

(Also, Beth, I told my boyfriend about your "fun police" comment and it's been making us laugh so much.  It's true!  Jerry is still young yet to get too "herdy" but the concept makes me laugh.)

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Permalink Reply by Marcie on March 24, 2014 at 6:59pm

There was a new dog at agility tonight, a jack Russell. I told the owner that Becca can be snarky especially with younger dogs. She said "Good, he is learning how to behave." It turned out to be one of Becca's better introductions. He ran up to her, she lifted her lip and growled. You could see him think 'oh'. He made amends, dropping eye contact and turning. She then sniffed him and relaxed. They were then fine and Becca was even play bowing to him at one point.

Beth I call Becca the playground police. All play she observes should be according to her rules. I don't let her play with groups of dogs anymore. Wish I could.

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