Corgi Aggression to Larger Dogs! HELP!
My corgi "Picasso" has started to develop aggression towards large dogs. If they get near his ears or face or try to stand over him, he goes psycho on them and tries to bite them. Now its not all large dogs but a lot of them. His face first looks as if he is scared and then "tries to get them before they get him." I have stopped him, but sometimes its hard to step in because he is so fast and just runs away. I have started to use a muzzle if i know we will be around large dogs. It has sort of helped but there is still a few large dogs that just rub him the wrong way. HELP!!!! Does anyone have this issue? Does anyone have suggestions??
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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We also let Jack get told off by older dogs a few times, and a couple dogs taught him in a day or two what we could not have taught him in days of training: leaping on another dogs head is charming in a puppy, but not in an adolescent!
In defense of labs: my father hunts duck dogs on occasion, and they must be able to go and retrieve a live duck who is flapping its wings and hissing in protest, and grab it while the wings are flapping in the dog's face, and give it the "death shake" and bring it back.
They also will swim in choppy water and have waves slap in their faces; they will even dive under the waves to avoid being pushed back. So their "back off" threshold has been greatly raised by selective breeding. It is the same reason labs are great with kids. A nice lab will tolerate a child pulling its hears and patting the top of its head and all sorts of things.
They are goofy. An adolescent lab can be a bit much for a Corgi to handle because of the size difference.
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Permalink Reply by shelley power on
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I agree that if you the new puppy is around a well balanced older dog, he can pick up skills, but I think I disagree with
am A-OK with older dogs snarking at him for acting that way. Hey, if they teach him then I don't have to!
I think because we have four dogs, if I took that approach , and let the dog, any dog do the teaching/correcting, it teaches the pup that a "dog" is the "pack leader/alpha not the human. On the same hand if one of mine acts inappropriately to another of my dogs ( or any other) I don't necessarily correct the other dog for reacting , but immediately step in and assert my "leadership" over my dog who is acting out.What works for us when one of mine acts dog rude, provided the other has responded appropriately is I step in and put the offender on her side and make her lie there and let all the other dogs sniff . But it is I who am "dominating , not per se another dog.
They are corrected and at the same time reassured that I will protect if they are approached rudely.This seems to also seems to subtly reassure the one who mine has been rude to that he neednt over react as a human will intervene.
some dogs can just do fine in any group, but these days for so many reasons some dogs are so scarred by their pasts it can be extremely difficult to figure out their behavior and socialize them to a point where they can play in a group.
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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This is all well and good if they are all your own dogs, but is a bit trickier if you’re at a dog park where offending parties are not your own, and have their own owners who likely have their own ideas/opinions about what is appropriate behaviour and what is an OK way/time to "step in" (or not).
In my opinion, it is neither appropriate nor responsible to correct or "assert leadership" over any dog that is not your own, particularly if you know nothing about that particular dog or its behaviour.
Further, as evidenced by this website among other things, there are VAST and differing opinions about what "appropriate" dog behaviour is, and how best to correct inappropriate behaviours (whatever you define that as). Those differing opinions are absolutely represented at the dog park, and you never know who believes what about how to correct their dog (or if they should at all!)
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yes this is very true. I bring my crew to various dog parks often and as you say so many differing opinions about what is /is not appropriate behavior, all the same if another dog approaches mine in a manner that is in dog terms, rude or dog aggressive in stance or body language, I don't care what the differing opinions are, I step in if the offending dogs owner doesn't and at the very least make my presence known and if necessary get control of my dog and and remove it from the threatening or "rude" situation. I am on the same hand right there to correct my own if they misbehave. Very often I find I am dealing with mounting behaviors of other dogs , and you bet I step up if the other owner doesnt and issue stern vocal commands to get the offender off, and remain by my dog till he gets the message .
We seem to all get along famously , even with the occasional offenses . My theory is the more the humans take control, no matter which humans, the less the dogs feel the need to react, protect, etc and become more ready to just play. And in cases where I miss a behavior by one of my dogs, I fully expect the other owners to step up and speak to mine, and as you can imagine this interaction seems to get our attention and luckily , we all seem to work together well.
Regardless of what "human" handlers think is appropriate ( for example the "hes only saying hello line)
in dog terms their are definable behaviors that are unacceptable in a group situation, and in my opinion it should not be left to the dogs to "settle" it.
Unfortunately even though there are "rules" posted at most dogparks, there are really no enforcing parties, so even though the rules may say aggressive dogs must be removed from the park immediately, there as you observe, many differing ideas of what constitutes aggression, and many different levels of behavior knowledge, and occassionally someone has hard feelings, but for the most part it is cooperation among us that makes the dogpark safe and fun.:))
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Permalink Reply by Kasha on
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Thanks for everyone's help! Picasso my corgi is very well trained also does agility. First picasso's issue showed like he was afraid of large dogs, on and off leash and he would try to run away. Now its become more of a aggression. Like he will not run away from the dog, he will start with a lip raise and ears go back and some times this will warn the large dog. If the large does not get it. Then Picasso will try to bite the large dog he does this when on or off leash. This is where it stopped usually now he is starting to chase the large dog and try to bite them. I don't know if this is because corgi's are herding dogs but its weird. And then other dogs he is totally fine with. I go to the dog park near my place because i live in an apartment and use the park as an opportunity for Picasso to run free like a back yard. And Picasso acts like this at the park all the people look at me as if he is a awful dog, or i am a bad owner. But he's a great dog! I just want to fix this one issue.
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When you say "tries to bite" does he actually connect? Draw blood?
The reason I ask is because dogs have something I've heard referred to as an "air snap" where they snap at the air with no intention of connecting. It's part of the escalation of warnings. If they do this they have no intention of biting, really really really don't WANT to bite, and some dogs really won't escalate past this point (mine will retreat back to me if they can't get their message with this warning) while other dogs may in some circumstance escalate further to a bite or a pin.
My girl can sometimes be a bit snarky, and yet she'll get excited and want to run right up to larger dogs, but when she gets there she then seems to feel a bit intimidated and snarks (gives them the Elvis lip and a little growl-bark). I have been working on this by getting her to focus on me first when we approach other dogs (I'll say her name and give her little treats if she holds her attention on me instead of the other dog). Then when we are quite near the other dog and everyone is relaxed, I'll let her approach for friendly sniffs and tail-wags. By notching down her excitement level a few steps, I've gotten her to greet in a more relaxed frame of mind and it really seems to help make her a happier dog. I also allow her to just hang back and ignore the other dog, if that's the mood she's in. She's generally fine with dogs her own size or smaller.
Have you discussed it with your agility trainer?
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Only twice has he made contact with a bite, and Only once was there blood. He caught the edge of a boxers lip and there was a bit of blood. But that's basically it.
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Permalink Reply by Kimberlie on
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Boxers and pits skin is very sensitive. I have seen dogs wrestly play and they end up bleeding becuase it is so easy to brake there skin. My adora made my sisters pit bleed many times by accident, esspecially with those razzer sharp puppy teeth, now it is not so bad with her adult teeth and she is learning to be extra careful. So that could of been the case as well.
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Permalink Reply by MagnoliaFly on
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Since you do agility I would recommend using the program outlined in the book Control Unleashed. The book was written by an agility person who also happened to be a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist. She developed a program for dogs to work on fears and reactivity towards other dogs, humans, sounds and objects.
The book is worth its weight in gold. It helps you learn about why they react, how to work on it, how to prevent it from happening while you are re-conditioning the dog and lots of other bits that are useful for working dogs.
We use it where I work with aggressive and reactive dogs all the time. The program works wonders. It is based on the principles of classical and operant conditioning in order to change behavior. The writer gives real world examples of problem dogs and solutions to the problems.
I've used it for one of my dogs that has typical herding dog "space issues". She doesn't like other dogs getting in her face to say hi. This is totally normal but I don't want her inciting the wrong dog by showing teeth and barking at him to get away. A few sessions on her mat and now she knows its ok for another dog to come close to her space and that I'm going to warn her about it. She gets rewarded for other dogs coming in her space and doesn't mind so much now.
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Permalink Reply by John Wolff on
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I'm having same problem with Al (3 1l2 years old). "Aggression" might not be the right word. He does no damage. Snaps suddenly at other dogs. I must learn to watch him more closely and figure out why. He did it twice yesterday, and and I noticed nothing on the part of the other dogs that could be construed as a provocation. Second time, the other (different) dog was not even looking at him, and several feet away.
My wife Lori thinks he feels unconfident. I'm not quite sure what that means. But maybe we need to do some more obedience training and socialization. I need to learn some new things, and watch more closely. I'll talk to our breeder.
Joanna, thanks for the Clothier pdf article. Al's behavior fits with "Brisky". He may have been feeling unconfident or afraid for some reason, it was a strange situation, in the snow on a mountaintop with lots of other hikers suddenly present, and then a strange dog too; I was not paying attention, talking to other people.
Haven't got this figured out yet but I've got some clues about what I need to do.
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Having read this stuff here, and talked to our breeder, I'm not sure Al's snapping fits either scenario. At least some of this has been completely unprovoked (I think); not a rude dog intruding into his personal space. And I don't see how or why he could've felt threatened or unconfident in these last two situations; the other dog didn't even look at him and wasn't all that close. It is still a bit mysterious to me.
Our breeder's advice is to correct him in no uncertain terms when he does this. I get the thing about not correcting a dog for defending its personal space, but I'm not totally sure that's what's happening. I'll have to preempt this, make sure he feels safe, watch for signs of fear or aggression.
The plan now is to keep him under close observation and on-leash in the presence of other dogs and not let him fail, stamp this behavior out. I'll have to be a lot more alert when other dogs are present.
We'll have a chance this weekend. I'll have both corgis out with Zeke, who Al has snapped at before. Al will be crated in the car (not loose in the back seat with me and Zeke), and on-leash whenever we're stopped.
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Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on
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Without seeing him do it, it would be really hard for me to assess his motives, but it is VERY RARELY unprovoked. Sometimes a dog can have an exaggerated or overly cautious reaction but it's always a conversation, not a monologue.
You also need to be incredibly careful about keeping dogs on leash around other dogs. It's VERY common for dogs to drastically increase their signals toward other dogs when they're on a leash. Being restrained actually increases drive; it doesn't decrease it. You know how they always show dogs being trained for protection work barking and lunging at the end of a very tight lead? That's not because they need that leash to hold the dog back; it's because they're using pressure on the dog to increase the dog's forward movement and drive. As soon as the dog made even a little move they pulled on that lead, the dog pushed into it, and before long the handler has turned the dog up to eleven.
That is pretty much the same thing that happens when your dog thinks about making a decision involving another dog and you pull back on the leash. Leash corrections around other dogs must be done very, very carefully and they often backfire.
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