Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Beth on January 26, 2010 at 7:37pm

Cindi, I think Wiki gives a fair overview of the issues involved with the program:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_Dogs_Exposed

Permalink Reply by Cindi on January 26, 2010 at 8:21pm

Yep! That's the show I saw.

Permalink Reply by Beth on January 26, 2010 at 8:24pm

There is, I think, some overzealous reporting combined with some good observations. I have a personal problem with some of the very unnatural breeds that look uncomfortable just going through their every day life.

Permalink Reply by Alice on January 27, 2010 at 12:50pm

As do I as well. What about the Bull Dogs that cannot mate or deliver naturally because of the structure people have breed them to have? There are several breeds that have problems such as this and I cannot see how someone decided this should be the standard when it is unnatural and effects the dog's health and functionality.

Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on January 27, 2010 at 5:37pm

That's really a misconception. Bulldogs are actually less extreme in body and head type than they were seventy years ago, and they certainly can (and do) whelp on their own. The reason almost nobody does it is that they have very small litters and are very, very expensive to breed, and thanks to advancements in vet technology c-sections are easy and very safe. So rather than accepting the loss of one or two puppies during whelping, which is normal and sad but not a big deal in a Golden with ten puppies but a VERY big deal in a bulldog who only had two or three to begin with, virtually all are sectioned.

We also do many more things with our dogs now, and breed them much less frequently. We're not breeding 18-month-old bitches, who would be the ones to birth most easily and recover fastest; we're putting titles and training on and giving our bitches a career, so by the time she's bred she's three or four or even six or seven. That also means a more difficult whelping and a further reluctance to put the bitch through labor.

This is something that's done across all breeds, by the way. MANY of my friends, including in breeds that are very close to wolf-shape, no longer do any natural breeding and do elective c-sections on all bitches. All dogs are AId and all are sectioned in order to avoid injury to the male (and limit the spread of disease; dogs do have STDs and they're extremely damaging) and to ensure that all the puppies are born alive.

Permalink Reply by Beth on January 27, 2010 at 6:34pm

I dunno, Joanna. I was reading a forum for Frenchie breeders (who are show breeders) giving advice to new people starting out, and they said they are very rarely able to successfully mate under their own devices, due to their extreme body shape. And I find it hard to believe that a couple hundred years ago people developed a breed that could not mate on its own easily. Call me crazy, but I can't imagine that AI and c-sections were the norm when the breeds were developed. Reminds me of domestic turkeys, which also can't mate.

American German Shepherd show breeders are another group that has intentionally bred deformed dogs that most of the rest of the world looks on with horror.

Permalink Reply by Wind Dial on January 28, 2010 at 12:06am

I am fairly involved with French and English Bulldogs, my mom raises and shows, 5 AKC Champions living just down the road from me which I also handle at shows as my mom is too chicken to go in the ring. It is a general consensus that if you have a stud dog that can free breed, he probably isn't built for showing and is probably as long as a limousine and leggier than a giraffe. The same thing pretty much goes for a bitch that can free whelp. Show Bulldog and free breed/whelp are not frequently found in the same sentence. I don't own any frenchies but am quite involved in the show breeding circles and am well versed in AI and c-sections procedures.

I presume that there would probably be about 20% of "show quality" females that could free whelp but quite frankly with the value of those pups and that they don't have very many, they don't want to give that 20% chance of a free whelp to go wrong and end up of having to have an emergency c-section raising the risk of loosing pups and rather plan it out a head of time to make sure all the babies get out alive.

As far as Corgi's are concerned, I've seen those first champions of record and I think todays corgi is built much more sound than the ones of yesteryear.

Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on January 28, 2010 at 8:46pm

Honestly, the ones who are intentionally breeding deformed dogs are the corgi breeders, so glass houses and stones and so on.

I don't like the GSD focus on evaluation at the trot above all else; I think they have overangulated stifles and could use some moderation. But I don't think they're deformed (whereas corgis without question are) and the European GSD breeders have their own conformational preferences that are just as unmoderate.

People always post pictures of Rin-Tin-Tin to show how much GSDs have "become deformed," but he was no more a show Shepherd than my Dachshund is. When von Stephanitz judged Morris and Essex in 1930 the dogs looked nothing like a Terv or a Malinois. They, even then, were heavy-boned, very angled in the rear, and presented in the old German pose with one rear leg forward.

Permalink Reply by Beth on January 28, 2010 at 9:18pm

Joanna, having read your blog, I must say you yourself say something very different about German Shepherds' hind ends over there compared to what you say here. To paraphrase, I think you say that most breeders of other breeds feel the GSD's look crippled behind. You refer to it as "nuts."

I don't know, it seems to me you are just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing because I haven't said anything more severe about GSD's than you have on your own blog. I say deformed, you say crippled, crazy, and nuts; and yet instead of coming here and saying "Gee you have a point about the GSD's and I can understand where you are coming from" you come back and post a counterpoint. I truly cannot understand why.

Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on January 28, 2010 at 9:52pm

There's a huge difference between "do I think they're wrong to be overangulating the stifle," which I do, and most other non-GSD breeders agree, and are they breeding actually deformed dogs, which they patently are not. WE ARE.

What I get very annoyed with, and it's because I live in the world and know the people, is the totally false accusation that somehow show breeders are anti-dog, that we "do things" to dogs because we're so blinded by - I don't know - the rabid desire we have to spend tens of thousands of dollars a year on our dogs?

We're the ones who get the least (at least in terms of money) out of dogs and the ones who devote most to them; we're more than a little insane about a lot of things but there is no question about whether we are pro-dog or not. And when you accuse people, you're accusing REAL PEOPLE. The bulldog breeders are my friends, the ones I invite to dinner, the ones who I eat hamburgers with at dog shows. One of my dearest and most valuable friends on earth was a GSD breeder before her death a couple of years ago. I could have hours of conversation with her about whether the breed was going the right way or wrong way, but I would never have accused her of not wanting the best for her dogs or - goodness - breeding deformed dogs. Whereas she could (and did) needle me for having dogs that were genetically pretty dang weird.

Permalink Reply by Alice on January 27, 2010 at 6:55pm

If it is a misconception then it is a very wide one that even breeders believe. I have talked to Bulldog breeders and they all us AI and C-sections. AI may not be 100% necessary but many believe that it is risky for the male to mate naturally as there have been incidents of overheating, exhaustion and even death. As far as delivering, they say that Bull puppies have large heads and the bitches have been bread to have very small pelvises which cannot always accommodate the pups heads. With a natural delivery the bitch is at risk for exhaustion and overheating which can prove fatal for her and the litter and it is for this reason Bulldog breeders opt for C-section as natural birthing is too much of a risk. This is not to say that all Bulldogs are unable to procreate naturally but those who meet the breed standard often cannot.

Permalink Reply by Beth on January 27, 2010 at 8:25pm

Don't want to post quotes that are PG-13 rated, so here's the links:

http://www.bulldoginformation.com/bulldogs-artificial-insemination....

http://www.bulldoginformation.com/caesarean-section.html

Basically, physical concerns are key motivators of the decision.

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