Good article on why Cesar's methods should be banned from tv
Here's a good article based in science about why the idea of dominating your dog Ii.e. Cesar Millan's training method) is not a good idea.
http://ladycyon.tumblr.com/post/2155151198/the-deception-of-the-dog...
Its pretty long and does contain a lot of Cesar Millan bashing, but mixed in is some good information. I think the most important point that comes out of this relates to the "alpha roll". I cringe every time I see somebody throw their dog on its back in an effort to "dominate" it or to punish the dog. Here's a quote from the article about the "alpha roll":
"Watch an episode of the Dog Whisperer and you’re likely to see examples of this supposed rehabilitation. It involves choking dogs out with their leashes when they react undesirably; it involves forcing a dog to confront objects or situations they’re desperately afraid of (a technique called flooding); it involves exercising a dog to the point of exhaustion so they simply do not have the energy to react negatively; it involves “alpha rolls” - a move in which he will flip a dog onto its back and pin it down belly up until the dog stops struggling. His reasoning behind this particular move is that this is what wolves do in the wild to assert authority. What he fails to inform the owners of is that wild wolves offer this behavior voluntarily, they aren’t forcibly pinned down. He also fails to realize or mention that the only time a true alpha roll occurs in the wild is when one wolf intends to kill the other. So an alpha roll for a dog involves being delivered a serious threat of intent to harm and a healthy dose of piss-your-pants terror. Not exactly the best way to build the dog’s confidence."
It also goes on to talk about how by using his methods you are essentially forcing your dog into submission by terrifying it to the point where it is afraid to do certain negative behaviors rather than teaching the dog the "right" behaviors using positive reinforcement (which has been scientifically proven to be the better and more effective method).
Here's another good article:
http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
and http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm
Anyway, just wanted to share :-)
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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Melissa, the problem I have with many of these articles is not with the science so much (the average owner with the average dog should not be alpha-rolling; I agree with that. And the average dog does not want to "be the boss).
I think that many of his worst critics, though, have watched a tiny number of cherry-picked episodes and over-generalized. I have seen tons of episodes where he does none of this stuff. I've seen him use peanut butter and cheese to counter-condition dogs to fear. I've seen him use increased toys/ play, I've seen him teach people to deal with fear-biters by removing what they are afraid of.
There are quite a lot of dogs who are euthanized for aggression each year. I knew one personally. Not a single trainer was willing to take the case; with severe cases of dog-aggression or human-aggression, most people have no options left.
Many of the cases where The Dog Whisperer does these alpha-rolls are cases where the people clearly say they've gone to other behaviorists and no one could help. Many are in situations where euthanasia was recommnended. What then?
I do think there is a small roll for dominance-based dog training. I think it is way, way overused, yes. And I think too many people walk away from the show thinking that every time their dog does not listen, it is trying to "be the boss."
But I have seen Caesar use positive-based methods a lot. I also think his advocacy for structure and exercise is a message that needs to get out.
I don't think it's so black or white as it's portrayed by his supporters or detractors.
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And the article speaks of bad science. Well, this statement by the author is horrible science:
"Cesar also fails to address the fact that all aggression in dogs stems from fear. There is no such thing as a dominant aggressive dog. Dogs behave aggressively as an outward manifestation of their lack of confidence.
I have never heard any serious behaviorist say that all aggression comes from fear. Dogs correct other dogs all the time, and some dogs do correct their humans for perceived misbehaviors. Other dogs are dog-aggressive out of a strong urge to fight, NOT fear. Predatory aggression is also not based on fear. Possession aggression can be, but does not have to be and confident dogs are perfectly capable of guarding their things.
SOME aggression is based on fear. Not all. Not even most.
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Permalink Reply by Jen Giammona on
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I think it's important to keep in mind what Beth said, that a lot of the dogs on the show are going to be on death's door if their behavior doesn't improve because the owners have exhausted their other options. The show even tells you at the beginning not to use these techniques out of context or without proper training. Not every training program is appropriate for every dog and it's important to find a program that fits with what is best for your dog.
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Permalink Reply by Melissa and Franklin! on
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I think the second article posted (which a friend sent me) does a better job of explaining why his methods are not good. I personally have NEVER seen him use positive re-enforcement in any episodes I have seen so I tend to not watch anymore. I have however seen MANY MANY programs based in positive methods achieve more lasting results, only problem is these shows aren't super exhilarating to watch because the trainer goes slow and doesn't push the dog to "fight/flight" mode right from the start and they slowly work up to stressful situations.
I know there are many methods out there I just hate that this show is aired because EVERYONE (especially people who don't know what they are doing) start to think "oh my dog growled, that means I must throw him on his back". I can't tell you how many times I've seen this method used. I personally don't think it is ever an appropriate method because you are not dominating your dog, you are teaching it to fear you. NILF is a way to enforce dominance, not physical force IMO.
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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
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As an avid Cesar watcher I also have to defend him. I saw in him a trainer with the unique ability to read dogs. The vast majority of us do not have this skill and therein lies the problem. The TV trainers such as Victoria and Cesar show us sound bites that really do not translate well for people with little experiance. I like the article in that it promotes positive methods and consistancy which both Victoria and Cesar use. Actually the rolling seems to me to have become a trend when The Monks books became popular. I don't think it is a method that should be used by any one but a very experianced trainer. Cesar often comes into situations where the people have already made a mess of things. I have been exposed to many types of successful dog trainers and find they all do things a little differently. As owners we have to find methods that work with our abilities and tendancies. People with alot of experiance use different methods on different dogs just as us parents out there find what works for one child doesn't always work with another. I appreciate that so many people want to train their dogs though and hope it will eventually translate into fewer homeless dogs. Typically Cesar is usually very gentle with fearful dogs, it seems it is more the spoiled ones that he is more assertive with.
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I think that may be the problem with the show, maybe it has changed since I watched it years ago, but when I used to watch it he always used force. He would generally use force after "exercising" the dog (which translated into him running the dog into the ground). I've seen him kick dogs, choke dogs, and push dogs to extremes when they are exhibiting avoidance, stress, and warning behaviors long before they attack. He's kind of like the crocodile hunter of dog training to me. His message that all dogs are trainable is a good message, but his methods are going to get him (or potentially his followers) severely injured. Yeah it says don't try this at home, but when you are basing a show on dog training methods you know the owners are going to try to use these methods and this I think does much more harm than good.
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Permalink Reply by Cathie on
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Overall I think Milan is doing a very valuable thing by working with some very difficult situations and showing people how to be better leaders and teach their dogs to get along in the world. I agree that his methods are not for everyone...nor is any one method going to work for everyone.
I think we humans project a lot onto dogs, especially the human notions of "alpha" and pack hierarchy, and in so doing, create our own set of problems. Dogs on their own in groups seem to have a fluid hierarchy, where sometimes one dog will be the leader and sometimes another, depending on the situation.
When it comes to living with dogs, I think we would be better served if our human notions of alphas, dominance and pack hierarchies could be put aside in favor of a family model. In a family, the parents are in charge and the children are taught the rules of proper behavior. Each child is recognized as a unique individual, each child has to earn freedoms and privileges by proving they can handle them as they grow up. No child is "reinforced" as the "alpha" child, because every child has different strength and weaknesses and will shine in some situations, but not in others. The wise parent cultivates the strengths and helps each child shine. So I think it should be with our dogs.
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I agree 100% with what you are saying. I think one thing that is lacking in the show is follow-up. Yeah for the 1/2 hour you showed the dog it looks like the issue was resolved. When doing further research it seems like some of the most extreme cases were not solved at all and dogs ended up being euthanized or re-homed anyway so in reality he wasn't fixing anything. I love the trainers at Best Friends Animal Society. They do not believe in euthanasia due to aggression and I have seen them work miracles on "unadoptable" dogs by going slowly and working to their strengths instead of punishing their weaknesses. Dogs are not wolves, feral dogs do not form cohesive packs like wolves, and I think it is wise for trainers and behaviorists to realize (which they do) that dogs operate in a completely different manner than wolves so to model packs and behavior training after wolf behavior does not accomplish anything in the long run.
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Permalink Reply by Sam Tsang on
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I have actually met Cesar when he came to Toronto, my wife's friend and her dog were on stage with him at his LIVE show, he did not use fear, he actually taught my friend to reward her dog with positive behaviour. I think the problem with these article is that they over analyze a segment from a show, the power of video editing made Cesar looked like a dog abuser, where in reality he was protecting himself from getting bit, when a dog angrily lunge vertically towards you, the last thing you do is ask nicely with a treat, you redirect the leash so that you don't get hurt, remember this is a strange dog meeting a strange man for the first time. To be fair the audience simply need to watch the entire episode, use common sense and think about how much real time footages were left out in each episode. People bash Cesar behind him, they never confronted him face to face, they never question those "questionable" footages with him LIVE. If there is such "real" concern, why don't they expert discuss the method openly with an audience?
Cesar's method in my opinion is in the middle, quite balanced if you will, Victoria stillwell's method is very kind but may not work in real red zone cases (cases that cesar deals with). Then you have certified bat sXXX crazy trainer like Brad Pattison. Just watch him in action http://www.youtube.com/results?hl=en&gs_rn=8&gs_ri=psy-ab&a...
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Markley on
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I agree. I think the key to having a well balanced dog is respect. It goes both ways. I respect my dogs, they respect me. I also make them part of everything in my day. They are included in my day, all day, no matter what I am doing. They also know what I allow, and what I don't. And if I suddenly change the rule, they know to listen. I don't rule by fear, and I don't think Cesar does either. It's about respect and consistency. I roll my dogs if they need it, and I have never had to do it more than twice. It's not hurting them, it's teaching them that that behavior is not allowed, and that I am the stronger animal, and if I wanted to, I could hurt them. It's similar to children. You can't rationalize with them. You have to put some fear in them, without hurting them, to let them know you mean business. In my opinion, there is no respect in the world anymore because we have too many "time outs". Just my rant.
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I guess its not Cesar per se that I have the issue with, I've never seen him work except on television, the issue I have is the show itself. He may use a lot of positive methods in his training but that doesn't seem to make good television so that's not what makes it on the show in most cases. I don't watch the show anymore, as I've said above, because in every episode I watched he kicked (i.e. redirected), rolled, or choked a dog, he didn't go slow and work with a fearful dog he pushed the dog to the limit until it snapped then threw the dog on its back because it snapped. This is probably not even 1/4 of what went on with the training session but this is what viewers see. Many people who watch his show are looking for advice and ideas on how to train their dogs so they see an aggressive dog, see Cesar roll the dog, then see the dog behave perfectly 2 seconds later. This is in no way how things happen yet viewers will go and do this exact same thing which causes more harm than good in most cases. This is what I have issue with and what I worry about. I've seen it time and again and I hate to see people do this to their dogs when they have zero knowledge of dog behavior or even timing and they are punishing/rolling dogs in situations where they should be building confidence instead.
I would love to see a discussion with him about his methods. Or maybe more live footage of him working with dogs without the editing and dramatic music. Granted this won't make as good television, but people may have the opportunity to learn more.
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