Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Sky and Lyla on December 10, 2009 at 6:29pm

Again, this only from my understanding, which is often flawed, but if you do an antibody test within 2-3 weeks of a vaccine you will see the antibodies in the bloodstream because the immune system is still fighting the vaccine form of the disease. If you do the same test say 2 years later, you will not have antibodies in your bloodstream unless your immune system has come in contact with the disease and is actively fighting it.

One vet gave an anecdote of her dog which had been vaccinated for parvo as a puppy, but not since and was then 7 years old. When the vet did a parvo titer in the winter when the dog had not been exposed to any other dogs the titer was extremely low, but 6 months later, after attending a puppy training camp as a demo dog, the same dog's titer was through the roof because she had been exposed to the virus parvo and her immune system was actively fighting it.

As far as the combo shots, at least in human's, there is some debate about that. For some people, even the slight increased risk of a combo vaccine is worth it for them to get the separate ones. It's just a lot of stress on the immune system to fight off 6 diseases all at once. Also, my career is in child development so I know a fair amount about all the autism debates. Do I believe vaccines cause autism? No. Do I think our children are over vaccinated. Yes. For some immuno-compromised children it might be prudent to vaccinate for some of the less serious virus, but I don't think that the average child needs the vaccine for every single little virus, like chicken pox. But I digress... :)

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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 10, 2009 at 6:35pm

Beth, I was going to bring up this same point, that human shots are often combos (like the tetanus/diphteria you indicated) and they seem to work. Most of the controversy has not been regarding the fact that they are combos but just the issue of giving the shots in general. I have never come across a vet that offered the shots separately which makes me wonder if separating the combo is really beneficial. I'm not saying that it isn't, I'm just undecided.

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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 10, 2009 at 3:36pm

I did come across this site http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2115&aid=950 which indicates the aide effects of the Lepto vaccine are potentially high and that up to 30% of dogs are not protected by the vaccine. I don't think Finn is at high risk for Lepto so in our case I would opt not to give him the vaccine but I may reconsider if he were in a high risk environment.

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Permalink Reply by Sky and Lyla on December 10, 2009 at 5:49pm

I do agree with the frustration over some people or business trying to scare people into vaccines by saying it's the law. Just this last weekend I was talking to my obedience trainer, who I really respect, and we happened to start talking about vaccines. She did not seem very approving of my thoughts on a minimal schedule and just said "you might want to check the Oklahoma law on that." I said, well I know my city requires a Rabies at least every 3 years, but that's it. She replied with "I think you should check out the state laws before you do that."

I did check them out to be sure, nope! Just rabies! I was very disappointed in her.

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Permalink Reply by Beauty and the Beast on December 10, 2009 at 4:42pm

Some places will accept titers and some won't. It's a real pain in the b. My instructor ran into this problem many times.
Make sure you find a vet who has the same approach and won't argue with you and try to prove that vaccinating a puppy 5 times is NECESSARY (I had one). When it's time to vaccinate do the titers. If they're high the vaccine is not needed.
I feel your pain about 4 rounds of antibiotics in 6 months. We had similar thing and my poor guy had all sorts of skin problems.
You sound like you know what you're talking about so interview the vets and make your own conclusions. Some are desperately dumb and it's truly scary. My ex vet tried to tell me that puppies retain maternal antibodies up to 6 months old.

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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 10, 2009 at 4:53pm

My vet is focused on the health of the animals and their quality of life. He doesn't do unnecessary tests (unless of course you want them done) and he tried not to cost you a lot of money. He was however very cautious when it came to puppy shots. Finn already had two rounds of shots and one deworming when we got him so the vet put us on the "normal" vaccine schedule (every 3 weeks if I remember correctly) and another deworming and advised us not to take Finn around other dogs or places other dogs had been until he was done with all shots. Many people say after the 2nd or 3rd round it is safe to take the puppy out and he said all dogs are not the same and one may build immunity sooner than another and it is safest to wait. His main concern was Parvo. It made me wonder if he had a bad experience which prompted him to be so cautious. I wouldn't want to have to switch vets so I really hope he's understanding and informative when I bring up the topic of vaccinations and what is right for Finn.

From what I've read, the Bordatella and Parainfluenza only last up to a year but it seems that all of the core vaccines (Rabies, Parvo, Distemper etc) should be good for several years so to vaccinate every 3 years seems safe to me. I would go for checking titers rather than regularly vaccinating but unfortunately this is where cost comes into play and I just don't know that it's realistic for us at this time.

For you or anyone else who goes the titers route, how often have you found your dog actually needs a vaccine?

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Permalink Reply by Sky and Lyla on December 10, 2009 at 5:41pm

Actually, if you do the research on titers, they are not an accurate account of immunity. All they show is how much of the antibody is in the bloodstream at the time the titer was done. If a dog has not been recently exposed to a virus, then there would be no need for antibodies in the bloodstream. I heard it described one way like this: there are firefighters in your town to help anyone out in case of a fire, but just because there are not engines racing down the street with sirens on doesn't mean the firefighters don't exist anymore. The antibodies are like the firefighters that go back to the station (or the cellular level in the case of antibodies), but are on call in case a fire happens. All titers do is see how many fire trucks are on the street at the moment.

There is no way to accurately test cell memory, which is what you really need to have an accurate test of immunity. However, after researching Dr Dodds and Dr Shultz, I feel comfortable not vaccinating anymore after the 1 year boosters. Think about it, do you get your polio or measles shot every year? Of course you don't, because you're already immune. The flu shot you do get every year because they are actually vaccinating for different flu viruses each year (depending on which strain the CDC thinks the flu will be that year). But after doing a good deal of research and talking to people on minimal vac schedules, I will be stopping the yearly vaccine madness. I am actually switching vets to a more holistic Dr. who tries to stick more with the minimal protocol.

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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 10, 2009 at 6:44pm

So what is your plan? I know you do not plan on doing the yearly boosters and I assume you will be getting the rabies shot every 3 years as required but what will you do (if anything) to prevent everything else such as Parvo, Distemper etc? Are you of the belief that once the dog is vaccinated it will last their lifetime or are you going to do something else to protect them? I gather from your previous statements that you don't believe titers are an accurate indication so I'm just curious what you will do.

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Permalink Reply by Alice on December 11, 2009 at 5:16pm

My vet's office called me today to verify our appointment for tomorrow so while I had them on the phone I asked a few questions. First off, I found out that they give the rabies vaccine every 3 years and the same goes for the other core shots (I had previously thought he did it yearly like so many do). I was happy about this. I asked about whether or not they give the rabies shot with the combo or if they do them separate and I was told that they usually only do it separately if the dog has had a reaction, otherwise they are given at the same time. I checked Finn's vaccination records and I do see that he was given his first rabies shot along with the combo. So, tomorrow he is getting rabies and the Parvo/Distemper combo and they said the Bordatella is optional and that one actually has to be repeated every year. Finn did get the Bordatella one last year so I don't know if we should continue with it or not. We will take Finn to the groomer maybe twice a year but he does visit the dog park so I don't know if he should have it or not.

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Permalink Reply by Beauty and the Beast on December 11, 2009 at 7:29am

Your vet might have been concerned with Parvo because puppies can get it even if they're vaccinated. We had one in our puppy class, poor fella had to be hospitalized. He survived it though.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on December 10, 2009 at 8:41pm

Alice, I think you asked about breaking shots up. The combo my vet gives comes, well, as a combo. I have never asked to have it split; I suppose he would agree if there had been a problem in the past.

As far as whether to give the rabies with the rest, my vet bases that on the weight and age of the dog. Puppies must come back for rabies. For adults over a certain weight, he will give both on the same day.

I left a vet once because she would not break up the shots for my cat. My cat always has a mild reaction to any shot; she gets a warm nose and is lethargic for several hours. Because of this, I did not want her to have two shots on the same day. The vet said it would not make a difference and I did not stand my ground, and ended up with an ill kitty for two days. That was my last trip to that vet (there'd been another issue too).

When I told my new vet what the old one had said, he said she was, basically, full of it and there's a protocol he follows for whether or not to give rabies with other shots based on several factors. I dunno if there is one or he's just based it on his personal experience, but my cat DEFINITELY does better with shots spread out.

Jack is fine after a shot. No change in behavior whatsoever. When Maddie had her shots, she was a little warm-nosed and quiet for an hour or so and then perked right back up. I've never had one have a reaction, but it can happen. Keep in mind the reaction many are referring to is an allergic one, but there are other issues out there.

For example, with the Lyme vaccine one of the concerns (besides the fact that it's not 100% effective) is that some dogs seem like they have developed a Lyme-type complication after the vaccination, which does not respond to antibiotics. The theory (and it's just a theory) is that the organ damage is caused by the immune response, not the disease itself, and so the vaccine can trigger it as easily as the disease.

Moreover, for years they thought that the huge majority of dogs who tested positive for Lyme never had any symptoms.

Some newer studies call that into question, though, and seem to indicate that geriatric dogs who were exposed but never symptomatic for Lyme do perhaps have some long-term joint and/or organ damage.

In light of that, some vets are changing their protocol for Lyme in the hot-zone areas. My parents' vet never gave it (mine does, only to dogs who frequent woodsy/brushy areas). But she said she is starting to rethink whether or not to give it and is now on the fence.

I think we have a lot to learn. The problem is some of the very studies that could answer our questions have ethical implications. To get a real accurate answer, you would need to vaccinate large groups of dogs at different schedules and expose them to viruses and see who gets sick, then in some cases do necropsies to see what internal damage was done. That would be a very controversial study, so they rely on titer-testing and what they see in clinics, as far as I can tell in the research I've found. Admittedly I'm not out there reading veterinary journals, either.

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Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on December 11, 2009 at 1:47pm

The controversy around vaccination studies doesn't center on the sacrifice of the dogs - there are TONS of vaccine studies that go on all the time. One of the requirements for an approved parvo study or rabies is that all the unvaccinated dogs die. I don't think any of the serious studies look at titers, unless what they're studying is titers.

What becomes very difficult and ethically iffy is that for a long-term study the dogs have to be in the research facility for the duration of the study. So twenty or fifty dogs have to stay in a research facility, isolated from other dogs, for seven or ten years. The research-dog guidelines mandate that the dogs be played with and socialized for a certain amount of time every day but it's still not a great life for a dog and of course it's a complicated and expensive study to set up. Vaccine companies, who are the ones who fund vaccine studies, are not interested in setting up a series of studies to prove that dogs only need to be vaccinated once in their lives.

The Rabies Challenge Study, which is currently in its third year, had to be privately funded and uses donated lab facilities and researcher time. It has two groups of dogs; one will test rabies duration of immunity for five years and one for seven. Hopefully when it's completed the three-year requirement will change across the country to seven or even ten years.

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