Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Kathleen Mallery on August 22, 2009 at 6:17pm

a true natural dock does not even have a nub. Lynn Brooks of Busy B corgis never had a tailed pup the first 9 years she bred. I was fortunate to have a bobtail litter from a sire out of The Netherlands. Lynn wanted one so came out west. I got my hands on her bobtails. You would not know them from a banded tail. It is her belief that the nubs and other lengths are a different gene. There is a lot of good information about bobtails on many of the Norwegian corgi sites. There is still a lot of controversy about the mode of inheritiance.

Permalink Reply by Geri & Sidney on July 27, 2009 at 7:48pm

Sidney is undocked, and IMO we were lucky to have found him. I just love his tail and he gets tons of friendly attention from folks. When we are in the position to get another corgi, I'd want to find another undocked PWC.

Here is an article with some detail regarding tail docking: I hope this is not TMI

Tail docking

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/act/docking.htm


Mutilations and tail docking of dogs
9 June 2008 - Guidance on the legal status of wing and web tagging in the light of the Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2008 is available.

3 June 2008 - The Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2008 have now come into force.
Mutilations

From 6 April 2007 in England, and 28 March in Wales, the mutilation of animals was banned under the Animal Welfare Act 2006, with certain exemptions set out in the 2007 and the 2008 (Amendment) Regulations. “Mutilation” covers any procedure that involves interference with the sensitive tissues or bone structure of an animal other than for therapeutic purposes (medical treatment).

Certain procedures are exempt from the ban because of long-term welfare or management benefits. There are some specific requirements on how many of the procedures are performed, and all must be carried out in a way that keeps pain to a minimum, under hygienic conditions, and in accordance with good practice.

The Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2008, which came into force on 3 June 2008, amend the 2007 Regulations and have the effect of:

* Allowing certain artificial insemination techniques in sheep and goats. These are:

o Ovum transplantation, including ovum collection, by a surgical method
o Embryo collection or transfer by a surgical method
o Laparoscopic insemination for the purpose of breed improvement programmes

* Allowing the wing and web tagging of non-farmed birds for conservation purposes (including education and captive breeding programmes) and for research.
* Allowing the wing and web tagging of farmed birds involved in breed improvement programmes and for identification for disease testing purposes.
* Allowing the neck tagging and web notching of farmed ducks involved in breed improvement programmes.

Certain drafting changes have also been made in order to ensure compliance with relevant EU Directives on the welfare of pigs and laying hens - these amendments are not intended to affect current farming practice.

A public consultation on the Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2008 ran from November 13th 2007 and closed on February 13th 2008. Impact assessments for both the wing–tagging and for the sheep and goat procedures and for can be found in the 2008 (Amendment) Regulations explanatory memorandum (on pages 4 and 14 respectively).

These exemptions largely consolidate and replicate existing legislation. There have been no very significant changes to the status quo.

A full version of both the original 2007 Regulations and the 2008 (Amendment) Regulations (including their Explanatory Memoranda) can be obtained from the Office of Public Sector Information.
Wing and web tagging

Guidance on the legal status of wing and web tagging may be found here.
Tail DockingTail Docking of Dogs (85kb - pdf)

This information applies to England only.

The docking of dogs’ tails has been banned in England since 6 April 2007.

There are exemptions from the ban for certain types of working dog, or where docking is performed for medical treatment.

There is also a ban on the showing of dogs docked after this date at events where members of the public have paid an entrance fee. This ban does not apply where a dog is shown only for the purpose of demonstrating its working ability.

The exemption allows certain types of working dog to have their tails docked by a veterinary surgeon. The dog has to be no more than 5 days old and the veterinary surgeon must certify that he or she has seen evidence that the dog is likely to work in one of the specified areas.

Owners and keepers wishing to have a working dog’s tail docked must ensure that this is undertaken in accordance with the law.

To access the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and The Docking of Working Dogs’ Tails (England) Regulations 2007 visit the Office of Public Sector Information.
Wales and Scotland

The Animal Welfare Act 2006, which contains a general ban on the tail docking of dogs, and the limited exemption to it, applies to England and Wales only. However, regulations detailing how working dogs are identified and certificated have been made separately in the two countries and differ in certain details.

Further information on the Welsh regulations may be found on the Welsh Assembly Government’s website.

The Animal Health and Welfare Act 2006 in Scotland includes a total ban on all non-therapeutic tail docking of dogs. Further information on animal welfare legislation may be found on the Scottish Government’s website.
Certificate

When docking and micro-chipping a dog, vets must issue a certificate PDF document (91 kb) as detailed in the Regulations. This form of words must be used by vets when issuing a certificate for a docked dog and can be downloaded onto veterinary practice notepaper.
Q&A
What kind of working dogs can be docked?

In England, Any spaniel, terrier, hunt point retrieve breed or their crosses can be docked (as long as the necessary evidence indicating that they are likely to work is produced).
What kind of evidence do I need to prove that my dog will work in order to have it docked?

The puppy must be presented with the dam, and a statement provided by the owner (or the owner’s representative) that the dog is intended to work in one of the specified areas. Additional evidence related to the particular type of work the dog will perform is also required. This is detailed in the regulations.
Can I continue to show my dog if it is already docked?

The showing ban, at events to which the public is charged for admission, only applies to dogs docked on or after 6 April 2007.
Can my dog participate in field trials if it has been docked?

Yes.
Must a vet dock a working dog’s tail if asked to do so?

No – the decision is discretionary. The legislation does not require a vet to dock an eligible dog’s tail.
How do I know if my dog’s tail has been legally docked?

Dogs which have been legally docked must have a certificate issued by a vet. The certificate contains certain information required by law and must be signed by a vet.



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Page last modified: August 15, 2008
Page published: April 4, 2007

# Australia: Banned in some states and territories as of June 2004.[9] Legal in Western Australia, although restricted to Veterinarians.[10]
# Austria: Banned as of 1 January 2005 according to the "Bundestierschutzgesetz" §7.1
# Belgium: Banned as of 1 January 2006
# Brazil: Banned for cosmetic purposes.
# Canada: Unrestricted. From 28 March 2009 cosmetic surgery including tail docking will be banned by the New Brunswick Veterinary Medical Association. This includes tail docking in dogs, horses, and cows.
# Chile: Unrestricted
# Croatia: Banned
# Cyprus: Banned in 1991[11]
# Czech Republic: Banned
# Denmark: Banned as of 1 June 1996, with exceptions for five gun dog breeds
# England: Restricted as of 2006 - can only be done by vet on a number of working dog breeds.[12]
# Estonia: Banned as of 2001
# Finland: Banned in 1992. Exception on tail docking, although banned on dog shows.[2]
# France: Banned as of 4 August 2003
# Germany: Banned on 1 May 1992, with exceptions for working gun dogs.[2]
# Greece: Banned in 1991[11]
# Hungary: Banned
# Iceland: Banned as of 2001
# India: Unrestricted
# Indonesia: Unrestricted
# Ireland: Banned as of January 2008. For Northern Ireland, see its listing below.
# Israel: Banned for cosmetic purposes in 2000.[2]
# Italy: Banned in Rome and Turin
# Latvia: Banned
# Lithuania: Banned
# Luxembourg: Banned in 1991[11]
# Malaysia: Unrestricted
# Mauritius: Unrestricted
# Mexico: Unrestricted
# Nepal: Unrestricted
# Netherlands: Banned as of 1 September 2001
# New Zealand: Unrestricted
# Northern Ireland: Unrestricted tail docking, Ear Cropping Illegal.
# Norway: Docking banned since 1987
# Philippines: Unrestricted
# Portugal: Unrestricted
# Republic of Ireland: Unrestricted for dogs.
# Russia: Unrestricted
# Scotland: Banned as of 2006 for all breeds.
# Singapore: Unrestricted
# Slovakia: Banned as of 1 January 2003
# South Africa: Banned as of June 2007
# Sweden: Banned as of 1989. Apparent increase in tail injuries reported among working dogs after ban.[2]
# Switzerland: Banned as of 1 July 1981 for the ears and 1988 for the tail[2]
# Taiwan: Unrestricted.
# United States: Unrestricted (some states, including New York,[13] and Vermont have considered bills to make the practice illegal)
# Virgin Islands: Banned as of 2005
# Spain: Unrestricted.
# Wales: Same legislation as England.

Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on July 27, 2009 at 8:13pm

Thanks so much for the info that you gave ...I appreciate it as I knew I read it and could have maybe found it but you did it for me!

Permalink Reply by Beth on July 27, 2009 at 8:26pm

Jane,

I want to say that I miss the tail. After having lived with a lab (my parents') whose otter tail was a nightmare, I thought a tailless dog would be nice. It was not on the list of reasons why we chose a Corgi, but I thought it would be a bit of a bonus.

But now, I miss it. Jack has the proper show-dock, which means no tail at all. And I wonder how much I miss. I remember having dogs growing up, and they'd be lying across the room from you, and you'd look their way and they'd just kinda roll up their eyes and give a gentle thump-thump of their tail. I miss that sort of calm greeting. The mad wags I can notice even with no tail, as the muscles still twitch back and forth a lot. And I don't think it impedes a dog's ability to socialize with other dogs; they don't seem to need the tail to read each other's body language.

But it would sure help me.

I dearly hope that the US breeders get together and reconsider the standard. I would never want another breed, but I do miss a tail.

Permalink Reply by John Wolff on August 21, 2009 at 8:01pm

Somewhere around here is a youtube video of two cardies greeting their person upon his return from Afghanistan. Watch that, and you'll really miss the tail. It's not a huge deal -- but why do this invasive thing if there is no really compelling reason?

Permalink Reply by Beth on August 22, 2009 at 7:34am

I think I mentioned, maybe in another thread, that I saw pictures of Jack's sire, who was here from Finland on a breeder-exchange program of some sort (I think). Anyway, he was only here for two years. And I loved the tail. A couple extra thoughts: the sire did some showing here, and got some high placings with a tail. I wonder if they make exceptions in the show ring for foreign-owned dogs? I wonder how that works.

The other thing is, I have read from multiple sources that until about 100 years ago or so, the Cardi and Pem were interbred and shown together. I know Pems can have a natural bob-tail, yet Cardis are tailed, so if they were interbred I cannot truly believe that all Pems had a bob.

Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on August 22, 2009 at 10:46am

It is my understanding that Pems and Cardis were separated by mountains and that is why they were not interbred but that if the Pem was a working dog they would dock their tails to signify this and that somehow this would affect their taxes(working dog vs pet)...don't know for sure...just what I've read!

Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on August 22, 2009 at 9:39am

Hi John,
First of all I need to clarify...to a fellow ranger...does Hibbing ring a bell??? I still miss my up north roots and feel at home in the woods! I really liked your earlier reply and my corgis and I appreciate everyones opinion...personally I will NOT be docking tails anymore and if people don't like it they don't have to buy a pup...

Permalink Reply by Sam Tsang on July 27, 2009 at 8:42pm

I'm not a breeder, I don't show dogs, I'm just a simple dog owner. Since my background is in the medical field, my preference is not to mess with nature. Unless it is a birth defect like a 5th leg or a deadly tumor, then by all means bring on the scalpel. I think every part of a body serves a purpose, when it comes to a tail, I think it helps dogs to communicate with one another, often times I wonder if our breed are often misunderstood at the dog park due to a lack of tail. I'm not prejudice, tail or no tail, corgis for life :)

Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on July 27, 2009 at 9:12pm

You know now that you say this...I did read a story where someone lost all her new pups due to this so called simple procedure! My 1st litter 1 waited 3 days and now I will have to have them docked on day 1 due to their size (of the tails)...not sure I want to be bringing such young babies into the vet...or anywhere else!

Permalink Reply by Sarah C. on July 27, 2009 at 10:19pm

I went and saw a litter and did not pick one up, among the many reasons was that they did not have docked tails.
Though I know some people don't mind and prefer it, in a breeder I don't know very well I see it as a sign of poor planning.
That and I want a docked dog, and I want it done before they are old enough to learn they have a tail. :p

Permalink Reply by Sam Tsang on July 28, 2009 at 2:52pm

Here's a video of tail docking. for those who have not seen it done.

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