Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Geri & Sidney on July 28, 2009 at 3:29pm

Oh my gosh. That was painful to watch, but I think I needed to see it.

Permalink Reply by Sarah C. on July 28, 2009 at 3:56pm

I am not arguing that it is right, or ok.
But when I see this I wonder if there is anything done to humans that is analogous. The piercing of infant girl's ears, or the circumcision of infant males (for those not in the U.S., this is considered a routine procedure here).
Then I think, if I am no place to judge those things done to humans without their permission(since they are infants and can't give us their opinion on it) then am I in a place where I can judge things done to dogs without their permission, that are the same.

The same meaning, in the case of foreskin/docking: Some people say tails have a purpose and should be let alone, some people say foreskin has a purpose and should be let alone. Some people say tails will get broken or injured and need to be removed, some say foreskin is unsanitary and an infection risk and needs to be removed. Both are good arguments with research that could support both. Neither have any good consensus on the subject and depend a lot on who you ask.

In the end it is a personal choice of the buyer and a judgement call on the side of the breeder, but both should accept the consequences without finger pointing at the other side. (Not that anyone here is)

Permalink Reply by Betts on October 8, 2010 at 7:53pm

I'm a pediatrician. I've circumcized lots of little boys for no better reason than tails are docked. I've tied off extra fingers for no better reason than we dock tails....cosmetics. I think if any of us have boys who are circumcized, we have no right to criticize people who choose to dock tails. One could also argue that we spay and neuter dogs for convenience as much as to prevent unwanted litters, and that too is correct.

If the worst thing we do to a dog is dock their tail, and then we love them and care for them for the rest of their natural lives, that's a lucky dog.....IMO.

Permalink Reply by Sarah C. on October 9, 2010 at 12:37pm

I'm glad to have the opinion of a pediatrician on this Betts. I feel like cosmetic procedures done to children for cosmetics are a perfect analogy for what we do to puppies, not just because they are young but because we as owners and parents are making a decision for an animal or child who are not able to make their opinion known.
There are tons of examples, dental braces, circumcision, digit removal, birthmark removal, body piercing, in some cultures, tattooing, scarification, ear notching, leg braces, back braces. All things that are painful, cosmetic, and most importantly, non consensual. Non-consent doesn't make it wrong in all cases, but it makes it a very important choice that we should really think about. We have a big responsibilty to be advocates for our dogs.
Personally, I feel that docking is acceptable for the same reasons I find human cosmetic procedures acceptable. I don't think it's right, but I don't think that it's wrong either. I just think it's a choice.
(In case someone would argue that pain killers are used in a lot of human procedures that arent in animal, that is true. However, in the case of male circumcision and piercing at least, even local anesthetics are rarely used. If you found the video of the puppy being docked heart wrenching, try looking up male circumcision on youtube. Hearing a little baby scream with pain cuts to the heart too.)

Permalink Reply by CorGeek on July 28, 2009 at 4:32pm

Um... Show the banding method. Which is by far the most common method of docking in the US, as opposed to a surgical procedure. Oh wait, that wouldn't shock anyone. There's no blood. No pain. I'm so disappointed in this forum.

Permalink Reply by Beth on July 28, 2009 at 9:55pm

With respect, I have trouble believing that leaving a rubber band on an appendage til it dies causes no pain.

Having said that, whether or not the procedure causes pain should not be the only consideration given. I am sure the pups scream when they do the dew claws too, but to me it beats having an adult dog tear off its dew claw in the brush and bleed all over the place on its way to the vet to have it stitched up.

I don't think docking should be banned. Ear-cropping, possibly, but not docking. There are hunting dogs, for example, that would get their tails ripped bloody every time they went out. Is that preferable to docking?

But we should give serious consideration within each breed to why we dock, and if there is no practical reason any more I think that breed clubs should voluntarily change their show standards to encourage natural tails.

Certainly it is hard to argue that there is a practical reason to dock Corgis. Border Collies are the world's premier herders, and they don't have a problem with their tails. As for cows stepping on them, maybe one of the working Corgi people could speak to that. But I did not think that was even the historical reason for docking; I thought it had to do with taxes.

Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on July 28, 2009 at 11:18pm

The reason corgi tails were docked was due to taxes...if you had a working/farm dog you would dock their tail and then you were able to claim him for taxes(however that was done many years ago in Europe). I know of one owner that wanted her corgis tail docked because she would be along on trail rides and get into lots of weeds etc. I will have to check but I believe that someone sent info on all thedogs and other animals that the docking had been banned(in other countries) BUT not for hunting or some other types of working dogs BUT they had to be verified by their vet? that they were indeed being used as these people said they were to dock the tail! I do have to agree that the dew claws can be dangerous for the dog to rip...I have 1 corgi and my Aussie that I wish did not have theirs although it's not as bad for my corgi!

Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on July 28, 2009 at 11:25pm

Beth,
Check out Geri and Sidneys reply from 24 hours ago this gives the listings for many different animal rulings and also the exemptions.

Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on July 28, 2009 at 5:39pm

Thank you so much for the video...just like many things in life we can talk about and have our opinions but sometimes to have the experience of either being there or able to watch how it is done is much different that what we want to believe!

Permalink Reply by Boo Buchheit on July 29, 2009 at 9:19pm

That was disturbing without sound (my boys are in the room and Corgis crying would make them crazy). I feel awful now that they both went through that. Still they don't seem upset about their tails. My son was snipped as a baby and he doesn't resent that...what a moral conundrum.

Permalink Reply by Kelli & Penny on July 30, 2009 at 6:43pm

okay that video made me sick to my stomach :(

Permalink Reply by christy fry on July 30, 2009 at 8:41pm

Oh my I never really thought about how before I guess I assumed they were given something for the pain?
that was certainly a eye opener!!!

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