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Comment by Sarah C. on January 6, 2010 at 11:54pm

That's definitely a possibility, that we're not all good at using the same training methods. I hadn't thought of it that way before.

Comment by Joanna Kimball on January 6, 2010 at 11:43pm

I think that dogs are very consistent in the way they train each other. If we can observe that, we can probably say something close to "all dogs learn most easily using method A." However, the very huge difference is that not all HUMANS can teach effectively using method A. So it's useless on a practical level to say that method A is the best or the only good one.

It depends on how YOU can train your dog. If you're confusing your dog, I don't care how expert-tested or behavioral-center-approved a method is; it's not going to work. If you're being clear with your dog and your dog is working happily and with minimal interference because he or she understands you, don't listen to anyone who tells you that nobody "should" train that way.

Getting back to the study of body language and pack behavior, if you want to learn more about the different postures the great resources are Aloff's Canine Body Language and Handelman's book Canine Behavior and blog http://woofandwordpress.com/blog/?p=267. Buy Aloff if you buy only one; Handelman is more of a book designed to put consistent definitions to each behavior.

Comment by Sarah C. on January 6, 2010 at 10:55pm

On Cesar -> I feel like he uses a different kind of thought process than method trainers like Victoria. The way he works with dogs kind of reminds me of when I was younger and I would watch my parents (and help my parents) work with cattle. There was kind of an intuitive knowledge of what the animal does and how what you'll do will effect it. A more folk/country method. It kind of makes me wonder when he's teaching people if it's really possible to impart that kind of knowledge on people. I mean, I definitely learned from my parents, but I never learned how to look at a cow and know if it was the kind who was gonna do right or act stupid. That's an experience thing. Can you teach experience?

Comment by Bev Levy on January 6, 2010 at 10:24pm

I love Dr. Mc Connell's books although some of it is a little over my head. I also notice with the Dog Whisperer and Victoria Stillwell that they evaluate the dog indiviually each time. Neither advocates a one size fits all training method. I agree Sarah that it is good to have as much info as possible but then I am a "read the book" kind of person anyway. It is not unlike raising children in my opinion, you have to learn methods but then you have to use observations of the individual in order to get the best results. Our dogs are plenty smart and we have to acknowledge that in order to have a great family member!

Comment by Sarah C. on January 6, 2010 at 7:27pm

Thanks Christy. I feel like a lot of the topics on training and behavior are about a problem and people kind of just give their pitch on why one or another is better. I don't feel it's necessary for people to become acolytes to a training/behavior "doctrine" and evangelize it. Behavior is a SCIENCE and I choose to stay agnostic, and believe what I see, believe what i interpret good research to mean, and communicate and exchange my ideas.
But again, I'm not expert. That's why I read all I can. I'm just a science nerd with a couple of dogs. :3

Comment by christy fry on January 6, 2010 at 7:12pm

everyone one my dogs has their very own personality's and respond differently in situations that envolve stress,excitment,and well every day activity's....they are like humans that way in that they can be more grumpy,aggressive,happy,lazy,super athletic,focused workers,or just the hey wanna hang out cool sufer dude and most breeds developed were for physical and personality traits...so I think all training methods are valuable it makes sense to have many of them so that the human handler(personality) and canine student (personality) can find and understand a succesfull program for them...because it goes without saying a more doimnant,aggressive form of training can be very harmfull if use on a shy,and fearfull canine...and where a nothing but good things clicker class might not work for a more pushy,grumpy,comando type canine student and thats just the canine side then the other end of the leashe has to understand and ultimetly agree with the method also....sigh...good topic Sara it really get's one thinking about all this

Comment by Beth on January 6, 2010 at 7:08pm

One last thing: personally I find wolf behavior about as useful in studying dogs as chimp behavior is useful in studying humans: that is, we can learn a lot from both and can do so with a little more objectivity and less emotional baggage than we carry when we study people or our own dogs, but the differences are also vast. It's a useful tool but by no means a perfect one.

Comment by Beth on January 6, 2010 at 7:05pm

Another thought is that in a wild wolf pack, a wolf who wanted to be dominant would disperse, and would most certainly not leave itself in a position where it was constantly put in its place by its superiors. There are cases where an unrelated wolf moves into an existing pack (an alpha male or female dies, or gets old and sick while its mate is still young and healthy and another wolf moves in and tries to become part of the breeding pair; or a lone wolf tries to join an existing pack instead of starting its own). But the artificial situation where we expect a dog to forever remain submissive would not really exist very often in a wild pack.

Indeed, wolves who are raised by people don't watch humans for signals the way dogs do. I have seen several science-based specials that show just how clearly wolves differ from dogs in their reactions to humans.

Dogs ARE social animals and will have order of some sort in their society, just as you do and dolphins do and apes do. They are descended from wolves and so that is the basis of how they form their communities. But feral dogs don't usually form stable packs as wolves do, and indeed their are subspecies of wolves that don't even form stable packs and mostly hunt rodents. There are many ways dog behavior is similar to wolves, but countless ways in which its different (wolf females cycle once a year and not twice, wolves consistently regurgitate food for pups and most dogs don't, etc etc).

I prefer to observe dogs behavior as dogs and not as miniature wolves.

If you want a good book to read on dog behavior, try "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell (and thanks to Bev Levy for the tip on that book).

It helps to be aware of social hierarchy to some degree, but for me when I watch my dogs' behavior I guess I see classical operant conditioning as being the single biggest predictor of behavior: behavior which gets rewarded increases, and that which gets ignored (unless it is self-rewarding) decreases. When I watch people with poorly behaved dogs, I can instantly see how they are unwittingly rewarding the bad behavior exhibited, and that is as useful to me as anything.

Comment by Sarah C. on January 6, 2010 at 3:58pm

I agree that dog behavior is more complex than it is portrayed on tv, or even in books. What I'm saying is that it is probably also a lot different from wolf behavior as well. If it is more like wolf-pup behavior, I am not sure.
What I would say is that like most things, I find it very irresponsible to see so many trainers or cesar-wannabes making these broad generalizations like, disobedient dogs want to be dominant, and the assertion that all dogs learn in exactly the same way.
I think the process of training a dog is important not just because we all want well mannered dogs, but because since our dogs are unique both in breed and in personality, that training gives us an avenue for understanding our dog's motivations and an opportunity to get to know and bond with our dog.
I was not attempting to break or dent any other training system, and still dont, because i think that most are based on results that at least one person has observed, but I wanted to put forward some other ways of thinking about behavior in addition to what we hear. There's nothing to be lost in giving yourself another way to look at an idea.

Comment by Bev Levy on January 6, 2010 at 3:49pm

That really makes sense Joanna. I also think the pack "etiquette" (for want of a better word) is a little more complex than most TV trainers describe. For example My Sparty is a pretty dominent dog but does not exert his authority unless there is food involved. He is also very polite when meeting other dogs even if they are not. He does not care for the doberman we added last year but once I made it clear she was a family member, he tolerates her very well. He will let my other corgi Izzy have her way about anything but food but as long as I make it clear whose food is whose he makes no attempt to go for the other dogs food. I think I was lucky to go to a really good trainer when he was a pup because I think he could have quickly gotten out of control. their behavior as a group is very interesting and I can see why so many people study dog's behavior.

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