Protein
So Franklin is close to finishing his current bag of food and I'm going to be buying a new bag. I am not going to mention the food he is getting, as I don't want this to become a discussion about what brand/type/etc to feed, but my question is....how much protein is enough and how much is too much in a adult dog food? I had thought that around 30% give or take was the perfect amount, but I'm beginning to read a lot about dogs not needing very much protein and that the ideal percentage is more around 20-25%. The brand of food I feed Franklin has varieties of either 32% or 25%. I had previously been feeding the 32% variety because I thought that was in a better range for him, but now I'm wondering if I should actually be feeding the 25%. One of the things that got me started thinking about this topic is that I started supplementing Franklin's food with The Honest Kitchen. Many of their foods are around 25% (with some being as low as around 20%), I was thinking that was low and actually e-mailed the company out of curiosity as to why they formulate so many of their diets with the lower percentage of protein. I got a great response from a vet explaining that they had done a ton of research on the topic and found that the lower protein percentage was closer to ideal. What are your thoughts? Also, if anybody has any scientific research to base their answers on that would be great too. I'm just wanting to do what's best for my pup and I feel we have this new trend/fad going on with dog food with the whole grain-free, organic, high protein and as with many fads (think South Beach Diet, Atkins, and now the current HCG diet craze in humans) this current diet trend may not be in the pet's best interest. On his current food, Franklin is of great weight, has a beautiful shiny low shed coat, perfect pearly white teeth, and firm lean muscle, so I'm not wanting to change much with his food, just wondering about the actual protein content.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Melissa and Franklin! on
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I guess my thought would be (following the cynical path) there are vegetable sources of protein as well as meat, no need to increase the actual meat content of the food, they can just as easily increase the other sources of protein instead. The bag just lists percentage protein, it makes no indication where this protein has been derived from (meat vs veggie). When analyzing a bag of food if you see the first several ingredients listed are named meat products then it is easier to assume the percentage protein is made up primarily of meat, if you read a bag and it just says meat by-product listed as the 3rd item, you know that meat doesn't make up a majority of the protein sources, both bags may still have 20% protein listed in the nutritional analysis.
For example a bag of Beneful has 25% protein but the first 5 ingredients are: Ground yellow corn, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole wheat flour, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols
where as a bag of Taste of the Wild also has 25% protein but their first 5 ingredients are: Salmon, ocean fish meal, sweet potatoes, potatoes, canola oil, followed by 2 other sources of salmon as the 6th and 7th ingredient.
two very different dog foods as far as quality is concerned, yet they both have the same percentage of protein.
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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And those same companies make cat food with a much higher protein content, even if most of the protein comes from corn gluten meal and soy meal, so I'd tend to agree with your analysis. For instance, Friskies dry cat food (also Purina) had 30% protein, first 5 ingredients: Ground yellow corn, corn gluten meal, chicken by-product meal, soybean meal, beef tallow preserved with mixed-tocopherols.
They could easily make their cheap dog food with higher protein, but they don't. Why? Because feeding studies show cats need a much higher protein content than dogs to maintain necessary functions.
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Since many of the bigger companies offer different foods with different protein levels, I really doubt that is the case. For Beneful maybe, but not for the more expensive foods.
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Permalink Reply by steve smith on
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I dont have an answer for you but I can say this We can tell by your questions and your care that you really love that baby and what ever you chose it will be the right one.
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Markley on
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You know, for years I fed my dogs store brand dog food. Nothing fancy. My german shepherd mix that had epilepsy and was only supposed to live to be 6, lived to 12. My newfoundland lived to be 13. My corgi mix lived to be 16. My springer spaniel mix lived to be 14. All in all, there must be not THAT much wrong with the Purina brands (or other brands), or my other animals would have bit the dust WAY earlier. I have no doubt that diet plays into some diseases, but just as in humans, I think genetics and environment along with diet together are what gets us. For example, my step-mom is way overweight, diabetic, eats like crap, and has a cholesterol level of 120. My dad is perfect weight, exercises, and his cholesterol is over 240. Go figure. But now I feed my dogs Wellness (except for Seanna- she gets her Royal Canin for her urinary stuff) after doing some research. Is it working any better? It wasn't, Seanna had so many physical problems--torn ACL, multiple UTI's...but again, is this related to diet or the fact that she's a purebred and they aren't as healthy as a mutt due to genetics. All in all, I don't believe in the diet wars. I think what you can afford, is good enough. So is higher protein better? From my research, no--unless like Beth said it's a high performance dog. They need the extra protein to build up the muscle they are losing. But too much meat is harmful. The by-products of metabolism are very hard on the body, and is what ages us. Dogs are different than humans though, but too much protein throws you into ketoacidosis, which is extremely detrimental to a body. My shepherd mix was on a ketoacidosis diet to try to control her epilepsy, but they didn't recommend it for long-term. I say if your dog looks healthy, acts healthy, and likes the food, then keep it. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
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I agree thanks for all the advice. All of my previous dogs have made it to an older age, cats as well. None of my animals until I got Franklin were fed what many on here consider "premium" dog foods. Heck, my very first dog was fed pedigree for most of her life! She was the healthiest of the bunch! Franklin on the other hand has been fed "premium" dog food his whole life and he is the unhealthiest dog I have owned. He is currently very healthy (knock on wood!), but the first 2 years of his life cost me thousands and thousands of dollars (I could have bought a car with what I spent on vet bills). Is this because he is the only purebred I've ever had? Did diet play a role? The whole nature vs nurture argument comes into play here. All of my cats have been fed basically low quality store bought food. My oldest cat currently is 17 1/2 and has been on Friskies for the last 5 years. He's never been fed anything but low quality Friskies, Meow Mix, or Fancy Feast. He has NEVER been sick, and only goes to the vet for annual exams. His last blood panel (about 2 years ago) was perfect. So how much of a role does diet play? All the big name brand diets are formulated to be complete diets, so is there really THAT much of a difference among all of them? I think for now I will stick to what I've been feeding, he seems do be doing great on it. I will also continue to do a full blood and urine panel yearly during his annual exams so I can monitor his health as best I can. I've been doing blood and urine panels on him since he was about 8 months old due to his health condition, so I will probably just keep it up. When I was feeding the lower protein food of the same variety I'm feeding now he developed crystals in his urine, I switched to the higher protein formula and the crystals went away. Was this due to the protein? Was he just not drinking enough? Did food play a role at all? These are all questions I wish I had an answer to. I'd hate to switch to the lower protein food and have him develop crystals again. I would also hate to feed a high protein food and cause long term health problems due to the by-products of metabolism. I'm not so much worried that the protein itself is going to damage the kidneys but I worry that the extra work the kidneys are having to do to metabolize the extra protein may cause long term damage. I guess we will just have to wait and see how this all turns out! :-)
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Permalink Reply by Tracy on
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25 to 27% protein is usually what I try to target for my dogs, although they get a great amount of exercise here on the farm it seems to be what works best for them.
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As I do more reading with different food companies another question has come to mind. Reading websites of the food companies that boast super high protein foods (such as orijen and wellnes core) they always say these foods are biologically appropriate, formulated after what wolves eat, yadda yadda yadda, my question is are they basing the protein content on the needs of a WILD wolf that can and will travel up to 30 miles a day? Or are they doing it more on a proportional basis? Some people on other discussions in the past have mentioned some well known zoos and sanctuaries such as the Smithsonian feed their wolves kibble, I'd be interested to know what kind of kibble they feed and the nutritional content (protein/fat/carb percentages). I'd much rather have my dog's diet formulated after a captive wolf than a wild wolf because his dietary needs would more reflect the needs of a captive animal than one that roams and hunts and covers 20-30 miles a day.
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The other thing that's important to note is that dogs are not descendants of timber wolves, but of a smaller now-extinct wolf species.
Some sanctuaries feed raw meat and whole prey, while others feed kibble. I read recently that wild wolves regularly eat the feces of ungulates (which explains our dogs' behavior) and that of course changes the diet composition of even free-ranging wolves from what we imagine when we think of hunters. Cats, on the other hand, are obligate carnivores and most zoos feed their big cats mostly meat.
This is a bit old:
http://www.nagonline.net/HUSBANDRY/Diets%20pdf/Red%20Wolf%20Nutriti...
This is a bit older still, but both address protein levels:
http://www.nagonline.net/HUSBANDRY/Diets%20pdf/Mexican%20Wolf%20Nut...
Also from 1995:
http://www.nagonline.net/HUSBANDRY/Diets%20pdf/Maned%20Wolf%20Nutri...
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This is from the National Zoo, but doesn't get into the dietary specifics.
http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/NorthAmerica/Facts/fact-graywolf.cfm
I found this very interesting, about the maned wolf:
"The maned wolf specializes in small and medium-sized prey, including small mammals (typically rodents and hares), birds, and evenfish. A large fraction of its diet (over 50%, according to some studies) is vegetable matter, including sugarcane, tubers, and fruit (especially the wolf apple (Solanum lycocarpum).[15] Captive maned wolves were traditionally fed meat-heavy diets and developed bladder stones. Zoo diets now feature fruits and vegetables, as well as meat and dog chow."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maned_wolf#Diet
Maned wolves are not actually wolves, but are wild canids.
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Permalink Reply by Rachael & Waffle on
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I was always under the impression that the dry diets like Orijen etc tried to take the average nutritional profile of a whole prey animal and turn it into a little chunk of dry food, rather than base the food nutrients on the nutritional requirements of a wolf.. I asked the people at Busch Gardens what they fed their wolves out of curiosity but I never got a response other than, "We'll let you know," haha.
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Here is an interesting read with some actual studies.
http://eukanubaperformance.com/sportingDog/en_US/data_root/includes...
Turns out protein is probably not the problem for puppies after all.
Also good stuff about the source of fat and protein being important, and not just the amount.
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