Good article on why Cesar's methods should be banned from tv
Here's a good article based in science about why the idea of dominating your dog Ii.e. Cesar Millan's training method) is not a good idea.
http://ladycyon.tumblr.com/post/2155151198/the-deception-of-the-dog...
Its pretty long and does contain a lot of Cesar Millan bashing, but mixed in is some good information. I think the most important point that comes out of this relates to the "alpha roll". I cringe every time I see somebody throw their dog on its back in an effort to "dominate" it or to punish the dog. Here's a quote from the article about the "alpha roll":
"Watch an episode of the Dog Whisperer and you’re likely to see examples of this supposed rehabilitation. It involves choking dogs out with their leashes when they react undesirably; it involves forcing a dog to confront objects or situations they’re desperately afraid of (a technique called flooding); it involves exercising a dog to the point of exhaustion so they simply do not have the energy to react negatively; it involves “alpha rolls” - a move in which he will flip a dog onto its back and pin it down belly up until the dog stops struggling. His reasoning behind this particular move is that this is what wolves do in the wild to assert authority. What he fails to inform the owners of is that wild wolves offer this behavior voluntarily, they aren’t forcibly pinned down. He also fails to realize or mention that the only time a true alpha roll occurs in the wild is when one wolf intends to kill the other. So an alpha roll for a dog involves being delivered a serious threat of intent to harm and a healthy dose of piss-your-pants terror. Not exactly the best way to build the dog’s confidence."
It also goes on to talk about how by using his methods you are essentially forcing your dog into submission by terrifying it to the point where it is afraid to do certain negative behaviors rather than teaching the dog the "right" behaviors using positive reinforcement (which has been scientifically proven to be the better and more effective method).
Here's another good article:
http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
and http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm
Anyway, just wanted to share :-)
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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Anna, I was not implying that all training methods are equal; I use mostly positive reward-based methods with my dogs, with the occasional verbal correction being the strongest punishment I'll usually turn to (and that is rare). I am a firm believe that it's so much more effective to ask a dog to DO something than to try to get them to STOP doing something.
My last post was more in response to Melissa's. My point was that people are very capable of making wrecks of dogs without using any harsh methods, and that strong corrections used correctly are not in and of themselves inherently abusive.
I just tend to think that if someone is going to alpha-roll a ten-month-old puppy for food guarding, that person was probably going to have trouble no matter what. I've not personally seen Cesar use that method for food-guarding on his show. He uses LOTS of other methods and if someone watches the show, picks that one thing out of it and says "I'm going to alpha-roll my puppy for this even though the show says not to do this at home" then that is a person who is not only a novice, but perhaps doesn't have the best instincts and should have actually consulted a trainer rather than mimicking something they saw on tv.
Lots of "positive only" trainers do a lot of things that are far more harmful to the dog than the occasional scruff-grab; basically creating Stockholm Syndrome in your dog and calling it devotion or attentive obedience is plain cruel and I've seen that method recommended by a couple of prominent names. It ISN'T positive, but they seem to think it is because they are not using corrections.
There are lots of books and boards that recommend using the half-hour down on young puppies. No offense if you use it, but that is akin to asking a five-year-old child to sit still for hours. Sure they'll respect you, but at what cost?
Alpha rolls and the like are risky; they can create more problems than they solve. A submissive dog will tolerate it but certainly never needed it. And for an assertive or fearful dog, you do it wrong and you convince them that you are unpredictable and out to hurt them and you can create extreme aggression where it does not exist. That said, I truly believe it does have a place-- in the right hands and under the right circumstances.
But Cesar also chastises owners for not exercising their dogs, and for spoiling their dogs, for treating them like children and for using them to fill voids in the owners life. He asks people to be responsible and encourages them to channel a leadership style of someone they admire and show confidence around their dogs. Dogs genuinely seem to like him and respect him, and the sorts of articles Melissa linked to truly don't match what I've seen on the show. It seems that trainers are reluctant to criticize each other, but it's become ok to jump on the anti-Cesar bandwagon, as if he invented or even popularized any of the methods he uses. I don't know, it just doesn't match what I've seen from watching the show.
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Permalink Reply by Melissa and Franklin! on
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I totally agree about most behaviors being a handler problem. I would say 9 times out of 10 behavior problems are created not inborn. But I also think that you are going to get much more difficult to correct behaviors by using dominance methods because if everytime you train your dog you are sending it into a "fight or flight" mentality you are going to create a very insecure and defensive dog. Many dogs who are just plain spoiled can very easily be taught respect and don't turn out being dangerous dogs. I think my main issue and the reason most people criticize Cesar specifically is that he is so high profile. These owners with the retriever were novice, they admitted such. They had a very well behaved dog, well exercised (dog parks and a large chunk of land they exercised him on), he was respectful of other dogs, well trained (knew basic commands and fetched the paper each morning, etc), and then this food guarding with his raw food started. It escalated very quickly. The problem is people watch these shows and think oh I can just do this simple thing and fix the issue, problem being they are using the wrong correction at the wrong time and create a dog that is so insecure and aggressive that he will literally bite the hand that feeds him. I would say probably 80% of Cesar's viewers are novices, people are watching the show to get training tips, its a show about dog training so naturally that is what they think. I have very good friends who have had dogs in the past try corrections from the show to train their dogs. Articles like the second one I posted are enough to get them thinking that there is harm in doing some of these corrections when you don't know what you are doing. The average Joe doesn't seem to realize the harm they can cause and will instead try time and again to fix the issue themselves until it has escalated to a dangerous level.
As for the retriever with food aggression, how they fixed him also made me uncomfortable. Essentially Cesar said he is too aggressive to teach the owners to deal with in the home and he had to go and live with Cesars pack for 6 weeks. At the family's home Cesar was able to get the dog to back off the food by just standing confidently in front of it, the dog snarled and growled and gave warning snaps but never tried to actually attack him (he had ample opportunity to bite). None of Cesars methods while in the pack were shown, instead 10 days into living with Cesars pack a little video update was shown, the happy-go-lucky retriever was so terrified of Cesar and avoiding him SO MUCH that he wouldn't even eat the food out of the bowl when Cesar tried to offer it to him. Throughout the updates he was so insecure and so terrified of Cesar he was panting, yawning, avoiding eye contact, laying down, refusing food, etc. When the owners came to the training facility to practice hand feeding the dog his demeanor changed SO MUCH it was crazy. He was wagging his tail and so happy to see his owners and allowed them to hand feed him and happily ate the food, with Cesar he would barely take the food out of his hand without cowering. What did Cesar do to fix the food aggression? We will never know but clearly it was traumatic for the dog.
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I was just watching this clip, on the other hand, which is awful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihXq_WwiWM
Then I read some back story: apparently the dog's owner wanted to make sure the dog was safe around food because they had a baby, and so he would dump the food out on a concrete slab and tell the dog to "wait" and then when the dog would go for the food he would chase the dog with a broom, to make doubly sure it was safe.
Good God, where on earth did he even GET that idea??? Needless to say, at this point using the usual method of teaching the dog that people coming towards it while it eats are a good thing would not work because the dog has already learned that people are crazy around food and can't be trusted.
Apparently, Cesar ended up taking the dog off their hands with a promise to find it a new home. This dog is NOT safe around children and while food-guarding is usually easy enough to resolve, the owner had already created a situation which means this dog will likely never be safe around children.
This assessment of the dog's body language is very good:
http://canineaggression.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/food-aggression-and-...
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I wanted to clarify that Cesar forced a confrontation here where none was necessary, and only served to worsen the problem, which is why I said it was awful.
Of course if you have little kids in the home, you need a dog who handles food issues with more aplomb. And I've seen Cesar handle food-guarding in other, better ways in the past.
I did not see the whole episode, only this clip. If he said he was intentionally pushing the dog to evaluate it, I might see it slightly differently. If he was suggesting this was a good way to improve the situation, I would have to totally disagree.
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Permalink Reply by Linda on
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I have obedience trained my dogs for years, long before Cesar ever crossed the border. Thankfully I always worked with good trainers in our local dog club. It was all about your dog wanting to do what you were asking of it and doing it happily. I have seen dogs, mostly the so-called dangerous breeds, who never showed any kind of joy...no ears perked up, no tail wagging...I felt sorry for them. I don't know what their handlers did to make them like that but I never wanted my dogs to be that way. When I did a recall I wanted my dog to come flying with head and tail held high.
Even before my daughter came along I taught my dogs to leave, drop it and not grab food in preparation for having children and for their safety. It's not that hard, some just take a little more patience that's all. If I can get a food-driven corgi to walk over a hot dog in preparation for his TDI certification it can be done without meanness, harsh actions or words.
I very much agree with Beth's observations and comments on Cesar and about how some people cause the problems while trying to stop them. I have never used the roll action, I've just never been in a position where it was necessary for any of my dogs.
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Permalink Reply by Napolean (Joan and Gabby) on
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There are so many good points in this discussion that I think all beginning, or even half-experienced, trainers should take in. I've been working with my dog, Napolean, for 5 years now and have trained him at home since he was a puppy, no obedience classes or help from a professional. I love dog training and the different ways you can train a dog, teach you SO much.
Okay, I think I should start with the main point of this disscussion, Ceasar Millan. I have been back and forth on his ways of training for such a long time! Nonetheless, after so much pondering and glancing through the lines of his show as well as live performances, I have to agree with Beth's very informative comments. When first training Napolean, I became one of those naive alpha-leader, punishing the dog even when that shouldn't come into place, kind of person. Thankfully, when Napolean turned 2 he taught me a valuable lesson. He began to become dog aggressive,even when he wasn't before (when I was using cesear's methods). I finally took a self-check and realized it was me causing all the problems, not cesear, not the show, no one but me. I had nervous energy, thinking of all the possible bad things that could happen, and at the same time I tried using cesear's pull back method with the leash. This only caused lunging and biting.
There's not much I can say that Beth hasn't, but I've realized that there is not one method of dog training to follow. There are certain methods that some trainers just can't use, as in, I who can't successfully use Ceasar's methods without becoming nervous myself. I have switched my training to positive reinforcement, which works well for me now. I thank God that the corgi breed is so cooperative and Napolean has willingly taught me what I need to know and still trusts my judgement. I too have realized that all TV shows make everything seem over-dramatic, when in reality only time can give you change. Since Napolean was NEVER really a red-zone case and has never been the dog to dominate his people, I have no other method of training to use but positive reinforcement. For some people, I think more forward movements are needed as some dogs are just plain ADD like some children who just can't stay still long enough to listen (I've met some of these dogs).
To state my postion on this matter, I am not anti-cesear or anti-any method. I am pro-any method that works well with both the trainers and their dogs.
One trainer that really changed my views on dog training was Emily Larlham. She introduced me to the ways of positive reinforcement and made me see that one way of training does not work well for all. Sadly, she is VERY set on her opinions and is big on not liking Cesar or any other harsher ways of training. Nevertheless, her methods of training should be further exposed, and I believe her ways are more better off on TV, than Cesar's show, as her videos clearly state it takes time and patience to train any kind of dog.
I first found her on her YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup?feature=watch
Here is her website (with a whole article on how to train your dog with PR):http://dogmantics.com/
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