The myth (and sometimes outright deception) of "Champion bloodlines."
One of the cardinal ways to recognize a breeder who is what we in the show-breeding world would call less than reputable is that they will talk about "Champion lines" or "Championship pedigree."
Here's why this is such a bad sign:
- It means absolutely nothing when it comes to the quality of the dog. Most of the offspring of a champion dog are not good enough to warrant breeding; the possibility of genuinely breeding-quality dogs becomes even more remote when the champion relative is a grandparent or great-grandparent.
- It shows that the breeder knows enough that they realize that successful show dogs make the best producers of pet dogs, but that they don't want to put in the effort, time, and money (and passion) to prove their OWN dogs in the show ring. It's very common for that type of breeder, when pushed, to say that avoiding the show ring is a virtue, that they don't want to "stress" their dogs by showing them. But then why do they brag that the owners of their dog's grandparents did so?
- Very often the price of the puppies goes up according to how many champions are in the pedigree, as though that makes the dog worth more. You should realize that buying a pet puppy from a good show breeder, and getting a pedigree that is entirely champions and not only champions but nationally ranked dogs, Westminster winners, "household names" in corgidom, is often cheaper than buying from those breeders. I don't care how much glory is attached to a breeding I do; the number-one bitch bred to the number-one dog is still going to have a bunch of pet puppies in the litter. And you can AND SHOULD be insisting on THAT level of quality in the breeder.
If you want a poorly bred Corgi, go rescue one. Please. Almost certainly that dog in a cage at the shelter has just as many champion ancestors as the average careless breeder's dogs do. And DO recognize that the words "champion lines" on a website or ad is a HUGE red flag and should encourage you to run away.
Here's why this is such a bad sign:
- It means absolutely nothing when it comes to the quality of the dog. Most of the offspring of a champion dog are not good enough to warrant breeding; the possibility of genuinely breeding-quality dogs becomes even more remote when the champion relative is a grandparent or great-grandparent.
- It shows that the breeder knows enough that they realize that successful show dogs make the best producers of pet dogs, but that they don't want to put in the effort, time, and money (and passion) to prove their OWN dogs in the show ring. It's very common for that type of breeder, when pushed, to say that avoiding the show ring is a virtue, that they don't want to "stress" their dogs by showing them. But then why do they brag that the owners of their dog's grandparents did so?
- Very often the price of the puppies goes up according to how many champions are in the pedigree, as though that makes the dog worth more. You should realize that buying a pet puppy from a good show breeder, and getting a pedigree that is entirely champions and not only champions but nationally ranked dogs, Westminster winners, "household names" in corgidom, is often cheaper than buying from those breeders. I don't care how much glory is attached to a breeding I do; the number-one bitch bred to the number-one dog is still going to have a bunch of pet puppies in the litter. And you can AND SHOULD be insisting on THAT level of quality in the breeder.
If you want a poorly bred Corgi, go rescue one. Please. Almost certainly that dog in a cage at the shelter has just as many champion ancestors as the average careless breeder's dogs do. And DO recognize that the words "champion lines" on a website or ad is a HUGE red flag and should encourage you to run away.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by shelley power on
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This is very interesting to me Joanna, I wish these were pictures of corgis instead of bassetts here.
I am sure htere are "types" in corgis as well, and seems what you bring forward here may be true in a similar comparison of corgis
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Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on
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There is only one "type" in either breed of corgis, and it's spelled out in the standard.
That's one of the lines that people get fed, that "Oh, that's OK because she's a 'working type' or 'farm type' corgi." What that person means is "She doesn't look anything like what a corgi is supposed to look like."
If you - meaning a purchaser or a breeder - don't want a dog who looks like a Pem, there are SO MANY out there. Vallhunds are SUPPOSED to have longer legs and a shorter body. Cardigans are SUPPOSED to come in different colors. Lancashire Heelers are SUPPOSED to be very small and light. You can get one of those dogs and breed them right, or support someone who bred them right, instead of writing a check to someone who doesn't try to breed Pems correctly.
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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Just to illustrate what I'm saying, the Corgi is from the herding group. I know most pet owners don't plan on herding, but if show breeders see themselves as the "keepers of the breed", how many have paid any attention to what sort of herding instincts their dogs have?
Are pups tried on ducks? Is breeding stock exposed to cattle to see if they still retain any drive?
What, exactly, is the goal of the show breeder? Are the dogs with the best temperaments kept, or are bad-tempered dogs who can still be handled in the ring bred anyway if they have "the look?" Will a pretty dog be bred even if it shows little herding inclination?
Outside of show circles, this is a very controversial subject.
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A whole ton have paid attention to that. My dogs are herding instinct tested and there's a HUGE turnout of show breeders at herding testing; I've never seen any of the careless breeders there, or at CERF clinics, or at club meetings. People committed to the breed drive hours and hours to get their dogs on stock.
There are special awards at each National that are only given to herding-titled dogs and herding is a part of the biggest shows. It's VERY difficult to set up so it's not something groups can do at the drop of a hat but a major effort is made when we know there will be a ton of corgis in one place.
There's also a lot of conversation about the function of the dog as regards its form. The length of the leg, the turnout, depth of chest, etc. - the reason we don't just create dachshunds (lower the leg even more, lengthen the body, lower the chest, etc.), even though they'd win under a lot of judges, is because, and very specifically because, dogs like that can't herd effectively over rough ground.
Temperaments are a major deal. We all know who has squirrelly dogs and we don't breed to them. If you pay attention to the big winning dogs who never have any offspring, those are usually the ones with poor temperaments; we can admire their conformation but we don't breed to them. These are our household pets, our family dogs, so it would be completely counterproductive to have bad temperaments since they live on our couches.
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Surely some of them do, but I saw the entries/results from the specialty. Admittedly sheep are not meant to be Pemmies' forte, and most of the herding instructors work Border Collies. But there were a small handful of Corgis entered in the herding competition at the National. Looking at the results, it doesn't seem that most of the breeders seem to focus too much on it. Good for you that you do!
I went looking for a certified herding instructor who advertise they will work with Corgis, and there are really very few out there. The Border Collie people have the market cornered. Which is a shame, because with the size farms many small hobby farmers have, a Corgi would be ideal. A big-running dog might not even be necessary.
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The Border Collies have the market because the BCs win herding trials. If you're serious enough about herding that you teach it, you've usually left your original breed behind and are working BCs (or sometimes Aussies). It's the same reason that the most serious agility and flyball competitors have BCs. They're a breed that was developed to do the same things, over and over, without getting mad or tired or frustrated, and the action is its own reward for them. You don't have to motivate them in the same way, or find their buttons the way you do in, say, a Lakeland Terrier. So I don't resent them at all for having BCs.
Most small farmers don't need a dog at all except to bark at raccoons - the average small-farm cow or sheep is going to come when you rattle the feed pan. I had sheep and goats and horses and so on when I was growing up; even with 15 goats I would never have even thought of needing a dog. They know their names and they come up and ask for scratches. People who have dogs with that small number of stock have them for the fun of it, and even most of the people who have a couple hundred sheep, if they're really honest, are using BCs and Aussies because they like them.
I instinct test my dogs because I am protecting a historic job and because keeping the historic job in mind is what keeps us focused on the right things in terms of conformation. I don't do it because I need the dogs to work; that was replaced by woven-wire fence a century ago.
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"Most small farmers don't need a dog at all except to bark at raccoons - the average small-farm cow or sheep is going to come when you rattle the feed pan."
I dunno about that. I have heard that many farmers are starting to rethink the guarding dogs, for example, as wolves and coyotes and mountain lions are rebounding in numbers.
As for coming when you rattle the feed pan.... that's great if you want the whole herd/flock. I didn't grow up on a farm but I rode a lot and worked part-time at a barn in exchange for riding time. I think that horses are about the easiest stock to handle, and even then there were horses you had no trouble catching, and those that would make you groan when you saw their name next to yours on the chart and they happened to be turned out; you knew it would be a half-hour catching them, at least. The thing with herd animals is most of them do not want to go anywhere without the herd. So what does the small and dogless farmer do if he wants two of his critters and not the rest? I think a lot of them end up bringing in the whole lot of them and then working out the ones they need, from what I've heard.
I've also heard of Corgis working cattle feed lots. They are better on cows than Border Collies, as it's what they were originally bred for.
Not all responsible breeders show their own dogs. Granted most who don't show are not "responsible breeders." They don't have contracts, don't health test, don't offer follow-up help. But there are a few around who do all those things and don't show. It's not the only thing to look for.
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Responsible breeders are involved in dog sport or dog work somehow. If they're not, they don't understand why or how to breed properly for the next generation.
Health testing and writing up a contract are, honestly, the easy parts. I can go pick up a couple of Lab X dogs from the pound and get them to pass their health tests and put together a really wonderful contract. I'd still be a completely irresponsible breeder.
If, on the other hand, I bred Lab crosses that I had developed to hunt bear, and I was out every weekend working with the fish and wildlife people, breeding the next generation by looking for a Lab/Ridgeback or a Ridgeback/Dane or similar may be the very best and most responsible move I can make. The difference is that I'm breeding for a real purpose, with a goal, with some understanding of sound, functional bodies and minds, and my dogs have some basis for success or failure beyond being good pets.
Contrary to popular belief, there's a LOT more to putting a championship on a dog than whether the dog is "pretty." Some of the prettiest dogs I've ever seen have been conformational trainwrecks. What a championship ratifies is that the dog is put together correctly and has a functional body that will obey its brain. Combine that body with health testing and with a way to prove that the dog has a brain - herding, hunting, obedience, whatever - and you have a dog that is worth breeding.
If you leave out one of those pieces, if you don't prove the body, don't prove the brain, don't prove (as much as you are able) a certain level of genetic fitness, then you have no business saying that you know that a dog is fit to breed. And knowing whether a dog is fit to breed is the first - the very first - step to being a good breeder.
So no, you don't have to go into the AKC show ring to be a good breeder. But you have to replace it with something else in that case. You can't breed for "nice pets" or "family companions" or any of the other catchphrases that are used as an excuse for not being involved in the greater world of dogs and for not having to live up to high expectations.
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And as has already been pointed out, with respect, there are dog people who look on show people the same way you look on pet breeders, as in many breeds (not necessarily the Corgi) there are show breeders who have totally lost sight of the original purpose of the dog and are intentionally breeding dogs that are conformationally and mentally incapable of doing the task originally assigned to them.
The same with horse people. Look at a halter Quarter Horse champion, with that huge ass and those tiny little feet, and just try to picture it working cattle.
Tell me a show springer spaniel is bred to hunt grouse, and do it with a straight face.
Do you really think the Standard Poodle people are thinking "duck hunting" when they are breeding?
I don't breed dogs, Joanna, but I know a fair amount about the history and I used to follow horses fanatically, and there has always (in modern times) been a split in most breeds between the breed ring people and those who try to keep animals for something closer to their original purpose. I can take out everything you said about "family dogs" and "pets" and go onto a sport animal forum and replace it with "breed ring" and pretty much get people to agree with me.
One of the original purposes of most dogs WAS to be a family companion, and the huge majority of dogs were not developed by royalty but by a couple people who wanted a dog that was a better ratter, say. They bred what they had and they developed the breed, and as I said "family companion" was near the top of the list for many. So I can't say I totally agree with you that NO responsible breeders don't also compete in some way.
What about some of the lap dogs? Some were solely developed as pets. Would you say that a responsible breeder could only be breeding those for their original purpose? Well, that WAS as a pet/companion. That is how many dog breeds were developed, by fanciers just breeding them at home. Why do you think every county in England has its own terrier? Some guy with a good ratter knew some other guy with a good ratter and they got together and had puppies, then they refined a certain look over a period of time til they had something recognizable as a specific terrier. Sure people formed clubs and got together, but there were always others just breeding at home.
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When good breeders of the companion-only breeds are deciding whether the dog is worth breeding, they are not just looking at temperament. They are looking at whether the dog's body is sound enough to obey its brain.
If you have a Bichon with no angulation, it's not going to be able to jump on the couch when it's eleven or twelve. If you have a Peke with a horrible topline, its heavy body is not going to be able to keep running and chasing balls once it gets to be thirteen. If you have a poodle with a perfectly flat croup, it's not going to have the ability to trot easily - even just to the mailbox - its whole life. The companion breeds don't necessarily have the very specialized construction of some of the other breeds - they don't need very full tails like the Malamutes do to keep warm at night - but they MUST be good, healthy, sound dogs with excellent basic construction.
Structure is incredibly important because it lets the dog do what the dog wants to do, for a long time, without pain or difficulty. It's just as important in the companion breeds and a good breeder MUST take it into account.
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Permalink Reply by John Wolff on
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The Belyaev silver fox experiments amazed me in showing how quickly a nearly wild canid can be domesticated.
Belyaev
It should come as little surprise that a domestic dog breed can change rapidly and dramatically when the selection criteria change.
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Permalink Reply by Shepdog on
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One thing I've honestly noticed and have to speak up for - and I was in Shepherds, both conformation and working for years. I know all about line-splits and behavior splits. However, I'm sorry, a working line dog often makes a lousy pet. I loved my working Shepherds, but man, my household was set up for them, and they worked hard. I rescued a lot of Shepherds who people bought working line dogs as pets and the dogs were far too much dog for an average pet family. Most casual dog trainers get overwhelmed by these dogs with so much drive because they don't have the time to channel it or use it in the way the dog has been bred for. When people ask me about working line Shepherds as pets, I'm the first one saying, "Not a great idea."
That said, I agree with Joanna wholeheartedly. It's been a huge thing for me to see in the last year, and it makes me happy. Cardi breeders are out there with their dogs. Herding. Agility. Rally. Health testing. Club sponsorship is encouraged and I love it.
I wonder if times that it's because it's just really not a popular breed as far as they go, and the people who breed them really love to see a well-rounded dog. Form is function.
I love my one Cardi boy who was herding things out of the chute. He loves it. He has drive. I'm tempted to turn him towards SAR when his ring-time's done; he wants to work and he loves it. That makes me so, so happy, stepping out of the Shepherd rings; brain and body.
However, I also love that he can turn off that work ethic (unlike many of the dogs I've worked with) and he makes one of the best pet dogs I've owned in all my years of dogs.
Last herding testing I was at, there were two Champions there getting the testing title. Actually, there were six Cardis there, and no Pems. Second one, same thing - all Cardis, no Pems. Which is interesting, considering how much Pems outnumber Cardis around here....
And yes, my rescue Pem has "championship lines." In his case, there's a champion in the fifth generation, buried on the bottom of the page. I admit, I only hear that line at the pet trade shows coming from the big dog brokers, sigh. If you're into horses at all, you'll also hear "he/she has So and So World Champion" on the papers. Usually it's so buried in the pedigree it has no bearing on the horse you're actually looking at.
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