Rollover Biting
ok so this afternoon i was trying to teach both lowlow & torque rollover. naturally i taught one while the other was in the doggy room & could be a distraction. well needless to say i had to stop trying to teach them to rollover (yes both of them) because my wrist is all sorts of scratched up & red. i would start them in the down position & i used my hands to roll them over while saying rollover. then i would use the clicker & reward. here is what happened....
Lowlow: every time i would place my hands on her & roll her over she would bite my wrist the whole time she was doing the trick. i tried to ignore it hoping she would drop it & focus on the rolling over part, but the more i ignored it the rougher she got with my wrist. so i tried giving a stern no with a little bit of pressure on her mouth with my wrist, then i lost her. she then didn't want to lay down any more & she just keep walking off. i would call her back & she would come but she still wouldn't go back to the down position & would just dance around me
Torque: every time i placed my hands on her to roll her over, she became aggressive. she didn't start out like that, at first it was mild mouthing & before i knew it she was growling & chomping done on my wrist. i know it was out of aggression cause she has the same growl & actions when she is fed up with lowlow. i did the same thing i did to lowlow, i ignored it hoping she would eventually stop, but it escalated, & i then used no with pressure in the mouth with my wrist. u would have sworn i was beating her by the way she acted after that. i called her back to me but she wasn't listening i think cause she was scared. so we tried again to rollover, sure enough she chomped down on my wrist & growled again only after 3 attempts of doing it. i told her no sternly & spanked her butt lightly. she got upset & ran off again. i called her back & we tried one last time but i couldn't even roll her over as she would completely lock her body up.
both the girls know what down means & they know the hand gesture. i give them treats that they like & i have even tried giving them bits of meat as treats for tricks but if i use that then they get to excited about the meat & just do all sorts of tricks without me saying anything. they just keep doing tricks over & over again hoping that they did something to get the treat (i don't give them the treat for those actions, only for actions in which i have asked for). so if i give them to good of treats they get hyper & won't slow down for even a split second to listen, they just keep going & going. if i give them their normal treats i have their attention until they think they are done. i also keep the sessions short as i don't won't to over do it. they just have to get the point & we are done, 30 minutes a piece tops.
so what do i do about the biting & the aggression as well as the issue with treats?
Lowlow: every time i would place my hands on her & roll her over she would bite my wrist the whole time she was doing the trick. i tried to ignore it hoping she would drop it & focus on the rolling over part, but the more i ignored it the rougher she got with my wrist. so i tried giving a stern no with a little bit of pressure on her mouth with my wrist, then i lost her. she then didn't want to lay down any more & she just keep walking off. i would call her back & she would come but she still wouldn't go back to the down position & would just dance around me
Torque: every time i placed my hands on her to roll her over, she became aggressive. she didn't start out like that, at first it was mild mouthing & before i knew it she was growling & chomping done on my wrist. i know it was out of aggression cause she has the same growl & actions when she is fed up with lowlow. i did the same thing i did to lowlow, i ignored it hoping she would eventually stop, but it escalated, & i then used no with pressure in the mouth with my wrist. u would have sworn i was beating her by the way she acted after that. i called her back to me but she wasn't listening i think cause she was scared. so we tried again to rollover, sure enough she chomped down on my wrist & growled again only after 3 attempts of doing it. i told her no sternly & spanked her butt lightly. she got upset & ran off again. i called her back & we tried one last time but i couldn't even roll her over as she would completely lock her body up.
both the girls know what down means & they know the hand gesture. i give them treats that they like & i have even tried giving them bits of meat as treats for tricks but if i use that then they get to excited about the meat & just do all sorts of tricks without me saying anything. they just keep doing tricks over & over again hoping that they did something to get the treat (i don't give them the treat for those actions, only for actions in which i have asked for). so if i give them to good of treats they get hyper & won't slow down for even a split second to listen, they just keep going & going. if i give them their normal treats i have their attention until they think they are done. i also keep the sessions short as i don't won't to over do it. they just have to get the point & we are done, 30 minutes a piece tops.
so what do i do about the biting & the aggression as well as the issue with treats?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Karen Dadisman on
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Thirty minutes is a pretty long time to work on training a trick. Try 5-10 minutes and then do a couple they know and quit. I would be very bored after 30 minutes of being rolled over and would probably chew on your wrist also! Dogs have short attention spans. Think one year old child!! The attention span of a hyperactive gnat. Go short but a couple times a day and end with a trick or two they already know so the session ends on a positive note.
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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Forcibly rolling a dog over (even if your intent is kind) is very threatening to some dogs, and a lot of Corgis don't really like being handled. My submissive girl Maddie can be flipped over with no problem, but Jack puts up a stink and it was just no fun trying to teach him that trick, so I stopped.
For clicker training, you can really back it up and start clicking, say, when they offer to go on their side instead of the down position, and try to do it in increments (shaping) like that. Or you can try leading them over with a treat, though with a short-legged dog like a Corgi that can be hard.
If Torque is locking up her body, she won't learn. Try teaching her something simpler like lying on her side for you while you give belly rubs first.
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Permalink Reply by Robyn on
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thanks for all ur responses, ok so i'll cut the time down & try the alternatives.
unfortunately they are no strangers to the squirt bottle, they chase the cat (he started playing chase with the girls one day & ever since he has become a target whether he is wanting to play or not). i try to refrain from any negative responses & only reward good behavior. or if they do something wrong, i tell them no & give them the correct action & they get a positive reaction when they do it. i think i will try luring them with treats. otherwise, i will call it off & just start on another trick.
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Permalink Reply by Chris Payerl on
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Doing a rollover can be a submissive thing, as they have to show their bellies. Do they tend to be dominant toward you? If so, you have to work on being "alpha" before they will allow you to roll them over. Maybe just work on them letting you roll them onto their backs for a second without biting and reward that. Then you can work on the rollover. Start the training session with things they already know and give treats. As soon as they start biting, say NO!, stand up, walk away and end the session. No more treats for that time. Try again later in the day. They will soon figure out that biting means no more treats.
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they normally are very submissive, a lot of times torque rolls over in my lap when i just look at her. i started doing the yelping & walking away technique last night so hopefully this will stop the mouthing
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Permalink Reply by Jessie & Alwyn on
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The frustration you have with your girls seems to be the same with what I go through with my Alwyn. He's an excellent pup (7 months old), extremely smart and wonderful around everyone. He knows his tricks but can be the most defiant, stubborn dog in the world. He'll bark as if to say "NO I won't do it" when giving we give him basic commands, although he more than understands what they are and is more than capable of doing them. He just chooses not to. Rolling over has been the toughest trick to successfully do because as with your girls, he'll try to nip at my wrists and / or hands. He dislikes having his paws touched so he tries to nip but we've been working on that as well. He also tries to nip at my hand when I give the signal to lay down - something he knows all too well. I'll lightly hold onto his snout and like you mentioned, he'll react as if I'm either hurting the heck out of him or he'll actually listen.
I do agree with the suggestions given on here with 'yelping' back when they try to nip because it does appear to work. Walking away does too but it takes time. I also agree in decreasing the training sessions to 10 minutes max because they do get bored and that's when those shiny object get shinier. ;) What I've done with Alwyn when he starts barking back at me when we're working on training is using a squirt bottle. We've tried using the can with pennies but lately he's been barking back at it. I know it's frustrating but stand your ground and keep at it. I know you're determined and I'm sure you're doing a great job. Keep at it!
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haha u hit the nail on the head, i always hate saying that she is doing things because she was told not to but it sure seems that way haha. she loves to bark back at me when i tell her to stop or no. she will stop, most of the time but she then begins the process of barking a lot. & lowlow has a very loud bark, it hurts me & my husbands ears. i alone small barks but not big ones.
yeah the pennies in a jar didn't work so well for them either. it was good for about a week, then they just wanted to check it out which made them bark even more.
i get frustrated so i just get them to do a trick they know & leave it on a good note before i get mad.
i usually wait a day before i attempt it again otherwise my anger will get the best of me & it's not their fault
thanks for the help & kind words
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