Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Roger/Laurie on January 26, 2010 at 4:27pm

As we all know even the "not perfect" dogs make great pets and companions. Probably most of us have dogs that would never be able to compete in the dog show world. But for us they are perfect.

Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on January 26, 2010 at 4:49pm

That's why we show breeders are so thrilled with the fact that we can find good pet homes for our puppies! You have to remember that for some breeds, historically, there was simply no market for pet puppies. If the average home wanted a purebred puppy they bought a collie or a Sealyham or a Fox Terrier, the dogs they were reading about or seeing in movies - just like today. They were not seeing or reading about a Keeshond or some other less visible breed, so if breeders wanted to make any progress and keep the breed alive they had to keep and sell puppies only amongst each other. This meant that hard decisions had to be made.

It's not something that any of us like to think about now, but we need to remember that it was the hard work of those early breeders that brought purebred dogs to enough prominence that they began to be a choice for more families, and because of them the events and shows displayed a much wider range of breeds and attracted the pet homes that we are so thankful for.

Permalink Reply by Beth on January 26, 2010 at 6:40pm

Any time people compete, there will be a handful who allow the worst side of human nature to show through.

About ten years ago, give or take, there was a major catastrophe in the horseshow world when some convictions were handed down for killing show-jumping horses for insurance money. A few of the very top names (think Olympic level) in the sport were personally involved, and some had fine reputations. The horse world was stunned. And because to collect insurance money you need to have it look like an accident or death by natural causes, they were very creative. I won't get into the gruesome details, but if you care to read for yourself here is the Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_murders

Undoubtedly there are breeders out there who do cruel things, and undoubtedly there are some who are top-of-the-line breeders with impeccable reputations. It's not like they have to tell anyone they are doing it, now do they? The bitch whelps at home and if you say there were five puppies, why there were five and who is to know any different? However I don't think it's nearly as common as it used to be.

It also depends on what you mean by "cull". I know of a breeder (not Corgis) who found out too late that a young outside stud she had bred to had introduced a serious inheritable disease into her line. She found out when one puppy -buyer contacted her to report said disease, and she went calling around to others who had used that stud and found cases of the same disease cropping up. She had a second bitch already bred to that stud, and my (second-hand) understanding was that the pups were all put to sleep. Since someone I know was on a waiting list for a pup from that litter and was given this information, I am assuming it's accurate. Some people may think that sort of culling is cruel, others may say it's kinder in the long run to the breed and the pups and the pet-homes to not send pups out into the world who are perpetuating a serious inheritable disease that could severely impede quality of life. Undoubtedly not all the pups would have been affected, so the decision is morally debatable. But that sort of culling is still sometimes done.

Permalink Reply by Wind Dial on January 26, 2010 at 6:50pm

I don't cull like that. If a pup is not thriving and seems to be suffering despite my best efforts I will take it to the vet and have them take care of it. Anybody who can sit there and listen to them moan and groan in agony can't have any compassion to speak of, it is heart breaking to listen to and distresses me something terrible. I will make a good honest shot at attempting to save it but you know at some point when your efforts are in vain and you must make that heartbreaking trip to the vet. As for mismarks and stuff, they go to great pet homes for sure, no knocking them in the head here.

Permalink Reply by Cindi on January 26, 2010 at 6:57pm

The idea of culling was based on the pups meeting breed standards. If the pups failed to be show quality, the documentary said that breeders will euthanize them rather than possibly infuse the breed with sub-standard qualities.

Permalink Reply by Theresa + Caitlyn on January 28, 2010 at 1:07pm

That is what spaying and neutering are for.

Permalink Reply by Riley Wilson on January 26, 2010 at 7:18pm

Hello, Read your note with interest. I got a Corgi about a year ago, at 8 weeks. He is what I think is referred to as a Whitely (or something like that), I am thankful that the breeder did not see it necessary to put him down at birth. He is super smart, healthy and has the greatest disposition. We adore him and I started him in agility at about 7 mos.old. He is fearless and does all the AKC standard obstacles and only needs to perfect his weave, which is coming along great.
I had him neutered when he was of age and would encourage breeders to give the healthy mismarks a chance for loving homes. Our Riley is a delight. Love the Corgis!!!

Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on January 26, 2010 at 8:31pm

I am glad you love your boy!

Just to reassure you, I don't know ANY show breeder of Corgis of either breed (Pem or Cardi) that euthanizes mismarks. We love them and show them off and kiss their noses and work just as hard to find them perfect homes as we would for our top show prospects.

I will almost certainly have fluffs in the litter I have now; if I don't keep them myself (I have a HUGE soft spot for fluffs) I will save them for my very favorite puppy people :). Please don't worry that culling is a big problem in corgis, because it's really not.

Permalink Reply by Cindi on January 26, 2010 at 6:54pm

The show was on BBC America and (I don't remember the name) was about breeders in GB. They talked about skull anomalies with certain breeds (Cavalier King Charles) and how they've been bred for appearance and now have difficulties because of it (epilepsy, etc). They showed Ridgebacks that were culled because a certain percentage were born without the ridge. And it was a current documentary, not an old one. I had just never heard of the practice.

Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on January 26, 2010 at 8:27pm

Oh, Pedigree Dogs Exposed. Yeah, that was a TERRIBLY researched program and was incredibly biased. They actually recently got a court decision against them for several of the statements.

Among MANY factual errors in the program, Cavaliers do not have syringomyelia because of being bred for appearance. It's a problem in how the caudal fossa develops and it can be seen in many small-breed dogs. The Cavalier people saw it, put hundreds of thousands of dollars into research to figure out how to prevent it or if it can be solved, and then PDE took the research *they* had paid for to say "Isn't it horrid how these dogs have these problems?"

The Ridgeback stuff was off too; they said, for example, that the ridge was a form of spina bifida (it is not). The Ridgeback club in the UK has long had a policy of allowing breeders to euthanize puppies born without ridges. However, that's not because they hate those puppies and it has nothing to do with being show quality (the vast majority of ANY litter, no matter how perfectly marked or with the correct hair or whatever, isn't going to be show-quality). It's because they were seeing a huge problem with the ridgeless puppies falling through the cracks and ending up euthanized, because a ridgeless Ridgeback does not look like a RR. It looks like a big red pit bull mix. They were not at all confident that they could ensure good homes and it was obvious that dogs were not getting turned in to Rescue without the identifying ridge.

I have a big long blog series on PDE if you're interested. It was especially infuriating to me because they were talking about ME; if you want dogs with no issues to stop being bred, we need to stop breeding corgis too. The reason corgis have short legs is because of a detrimental mutation in its connective tissue; corgis and other dwarfed breeds have a much higher incidence of growth plate injuries, spinal injuries, arthritis, hip dysplasia (EVERY corgi is dysplastic, to a certain extent - passing OFA just means "less dysplastic than some"; if you described a normal corgi hip you're describing a terrible tall-dog hip), etc. So trust me that the corgi is squarely in the cross-hairs of the group that put out that documentary, and dwarfed breeds are already being recommended not to be bred any more by multiple government groups over there.

Permalink Reply by Alice on January 27, 2010 at 12:43pm

I'm sure I could look this up online but since I'm here I'll just ask. How is the dwarfism that effects dogs such as Corgis different from that in humans? Two humans with dwarfism can and often do produce average size children but you don't see this in dogs. Some Corgis or Bassets may have slightly longer legs but they are still dwarfs and I don't know how all of their offspring can have dwarfism. Can other breeds like say a German Shepherd produce offspring with dwarfism?

Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on January 27, 2010 at 5:28pm

Dog dwarfism is a similar but not identical mutation to human achondroplasia, which is the most common form of human dwarfism (though certainly not the only one). Maybe the best way to put it is that the connective tissue is changed in very similar ways - the growth plates are thin and brittle and somewhat deformed, the cartilage ages quickly, joints are not set as deeply or held in as well, the tendons and ligaments are weaker - but it spares (for example) the face, which is a common or nearly universal symptom of human achondroplasia. And the genetic basis is completely different - you're exactly right that in humans it's a single gene that when paired with a normal gene produces an achondroplastic baby; that means that average-height children are often born.

Other breeds do have spontaneous dwarfism, but it seems to be one of the other types - pituitary dwarfism is one of the more common. Those puppies are not healthy and do not have a normal lifespan, unlike corgis.

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