Dog Aggression in Neighbor's Dog
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Vicky Hay on
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OMG, Holly. You just scared the bedoodles out of me.
German shepherds -- my dog of choice before I got too old to handle a 90-pound dog safely -- are classically dog-averse. PLEASE be careful! This is not something the Ger-Shep can help: it's part of the dog's nature. If you were a creature bred to protect sheep, you would wish to rid the earth of wolves and coyotes. In the genetics of some German shepherd brains, "wolf" and "coyote" translates to "any canid."
Of course the woman loves her dog -- the more so because she's at least to some degree dependent on it -- and like most GerSheps, it no doubt is gentle and handsome and wonderful most of the time. But that does not make the dog any less a shepherd dog. She probably has no clue the risk she's running, and if you try to explain it to her, she will ignore everything you say. (I speak from experience.)
My most recent German shepherd, Anna, would appear to be calm and even friendly around other dogs. I came to understand this was a deliberate ruse. She would wag cheerfully and elicit a big goofy grin when someone came up to us with a dog. Many people would simply ignore me when I would say things like "Please keep your dog back; my dog will bite your dog." Some of them would actually respond, stupidly, with "Oh, they just want to play." Anna would wag. She would grin. She would appear to be calm and happy...until the other dog was within reach. Then she would go straight for the jugular.
That is not an exaggeration.
So many morons wander around our neighborhood park with their dogs off the leash, in direct contradiction of city and county law, that I had to keep Anna away from the park altogether. Annoyed the dickens out of me, because I pay taxes to support that park, too...but apparently people who think their dogs should run loose don't care about other taxpayers. Nor do they care about their dogs' safety. Well...that's not fair: like your blind acquaintance, they're probably just naive about the nature of dogs.
If this dog attacks your dog, do not put your hands or yourself between the two animals. Instead, go around to the hind end of the shepherd dog and grab the animal's back feet. Lift up, like lifting up the handles of a wheelbarrow, back up, and circle backward. Keep backing in a circle so the dog can't reach you. Yell for help. If you have to, yell "FIRE" to get the attention of neighbors inside their homes -- people will come out to watch your house burn down before they'll come out to rescue you from a rapist, a mugger, or an angry dog.
Best strategy, however, is to keep your dog a good long way from her dog.
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Permalink Reply by Holly on
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Thanks. the calm states even threw me off. A true guide dog for the blind is never aggressive toward people or animals but I have a friend who recently lost her beloved guide dog that was trained by an agency and she cannot afford to come up with her portion of the costs for another one. She said many people do train them themselves and do a good job but she is not up for the responsibility. The dog in my neighborhood does not guide her around,thank God, so it is only out with her on a leash for walks. She uses it at home to warn her for seizures which she usually has at night, and probably because she feels safer at night with it. I don't know the name of the lead she uses but it reminds me of a horse lead. She does keep it away from others, especially dogs, but As you said, she does not hear my concerns and though it does obey her well, it did get away from her once when she slipped in the snow. I guess I have to think hard about this one. As my neighbor said, Sully wouldn't lsat one second if that dog got loose.
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Well, don't borrow trouble. Chances are nothing will ever happen.
LOL! I've had a couple of experiences with Cassie and GerSheps. She's been attacked once and threatened once by different members of that august breed.
If the dog is off the lead in its own territory and sees you approaching, it will quite naturally view you as a threat to its flock (which is how it regards its humans, especially human lambs). In that case it may swagger toward you belligerently in an attempt to scare you off, thereby sparing itself the effort involved in ridding the earth of your pestilence. In that case, position your dog behind you, if you can. Do not turn your back on the GerShep, and do not run away. Back off slowly, if at all possible with your dog behind your legs. Holler for the idiot humans to please come get their dog. If the only people outdoors at the time are children, tell the kids to get inside. (If they belong to the dog, the absence of the children will calm the dog's fears; if the dog is going to attack, you do NOT want kids to witness any such thing.)
Usually you can back off far enough that the dog will decide you're no threat.
Because you're bigger than a corgi, placing yourself between the corgi and the shepherd has a (very slight) discouraging effect. Backing away is safest, because in my experience a silently aroused shepherd will pounce when you turn your back. And moving slowly (if at all possible) is less likely to trigger the dog's prey instinct. If you run, it will give chase. Naturally.
BTW, corgis after all are shepherd dogs, too, with similarly developed instincts. When approached aggressively, a corgi is likely to engage the fight, no matter how large the perceived opponent. You should be prepared for that. It's an interesting experience...one you probably will not care to repeat. ;-)
On the guide dog issue, in the east, Guide Dog Foundation for the Blind provides trained guide dogs free of charge. I wonder if your friend would qualify?
Nice article on the subject here: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/08/giving/precious-eyes.html
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I think they do train most guide dogs for free, but the waitlist is so long that many people train their own dogs and it typically works out very well, but I think they use outside help as well. The woman that lives here actually has play dates with a friend's visiting corgi! That is one of the reasons I am so perplexed. My eighty year-old neighbor cuddles up with this dog. I plan to stay away. Today when I was out walking Sully I found myself much more aware before turning corners and such. Maybe I will have to get Sully a Kevlar suit or take her out in a shark tank for a few months. I guess I was a bit more traumatized than I thought.
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Permalink Reply by Beverly Butler Redford & Tucker on
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Thanks for the heads up about German Shepherds. I've had little to no experience with them. We had a near miss last week at the park. Butler, Redford and I were talking our morning walk around the park when an older woman with two dogs (one was a Shepherd) started having trouble with her dogs on her way to the dog park. The Shepherd got loose and came over to us. Butler thankfully was on a really short leash because he jumped toward the Shepherd's throat. I was yelling for the woman to call back her dog. The Shepherd wandered off, but it was a tense moment. What you said about Anna being sweet and almost luring the other dogs in is scary. I was concerned because to me two corgis on leashes equals bait.
Another woman who is a regular at the dog park told me the Shepherd was a gift to the older woman, but she was pushing 80 and can't control the Shepherd well. She heard me yelling and came to help.
I've been watching for that dog since so we can adjust our route. I get very frustrated with people who can't/won't control their dogs or who let their dogs run the show because they don't understand the risks.
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Many GerSheps are good, patient, and kindly dogs. Anna had been attacked three times by an idiot neighbor's dog when she was a pup -- the moron neighbors had junk piled up near a wall, and the dog would climb up the stuff, come over the wall, and go after us as we walked past its house (the only way to get from our house to the park on foot). It bit her twice. I'm sure this was what triggered her dog-aversiveness. However, it's worth knowing that this is a fairly common characteristic in the breed -- NOT the dog's fault...just the way the dog happens to be.
The problem is that many people who acquire GerSheps don't know much about the breed. It really is a breed that you need to understand (from puppyhood) in order to enjoy the animal and feel confident that it's safe around everyone. Except burglars, o'course. ;-)
Eighty?!???? Dear heaven. I went over to corgis in my late 60s because felt I was no longer physically vigorous enough to handle another specimen of the beloved GerSheps. And I was healthy and pretty fit. Once you're past about 65 or 70, you really should choose a pet that has less drive or that is too small to drag you down the street. My corgis have the drive, but even in my dotage I still have the weight...uhm, make that "inertia" :-D...to stay more or less in control.
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Permalink Reply by Anna Morelli on
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I have commented on this before and my thoughts have not changed. If Sully is on leash, and so is the other dog, you have ample time to go in a different direction when walking. If you are going to an enclosed common space, such as a laundry room, leave Sully at home. It is easier to control one's own actions and dog than to try to control the world around you. The neighbor is acting according to her perception of her dog (different than yours) and doing the best she can with her situation.
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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Anna, I have to respectfully disagree. Holly says "The other day I was walking by the laundry room not knowing my neighbor was in there with the German Shepherd. She opened the door to the laundry room and her dog tore off after Sully growling and baring teeth very clearly."
Holly did not go into the laundry room, nor did she even know the woman was there. She was walking BY the laundry room, and the door was closed at the time. The OTHER person opened the door at which point her dog was growling and baring teeth. A dog that is likely to growl and bare teeth if a door is opened should not be in the public, common places of the building without a muzzle or something.If someone gets hurt after these documented, past incidences, the owner could be sued.
The fact that the woman uses the dog for service work does not excuse her from having a dog that behaves itself.
These sorts of incidences with self-trained service dogs behaving inappropriately are likely to change, for the worse, our rules about service dogs in this country.
I don't think it's fair to Holly to say "Be careful to avoid any public areas of the building with your leashed dog in case someone else can't control her dog."
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You are right Beth. I misread the post and thought Holly had entered the laundry room with Sully when the incident occurred.
I am still confused though. Maybe Holly can clarify. If the dog tore off after Sully growling and baring teeth, how was it that nothing happened? Was the dog on leash? If so, the neighbor did have control of the dog, even though the behavior was unwanted.
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Will be interesting to hear Holly's clarification. But even if the dog was on a leash, a peeved German shepherd can be truly alarming, leash or no. And most are pretty powerful...unless the woman was very strong and forceful, the dog could have broken loose and wreaked havoc. IMHO Holly was probably right to be spooked by this incident.
That said, you can't fix stupid. If the other owner remained convinced that the dog was just trying to be palsy-walsy and seemed not to have her dog fully under control (or seemed to be at risk of losing control should the dog launch into a serious attack), as unfair as it seems, the only course of action is to keep YOUR dog out of harm's way.
In the case of Anna the GerShep, I ultimately had to stop taking her to the park, because so many people let their dogs run loose off the leash there. Even tho' my dog was on a leash and was generally well trained, if a loose dog came within eviscerating range, Anna was gonna try to kill it. We would walk in parts of the neighborhood where most dogs were leashed, but we had to stay away from the park. Discretion, after all, is the better part...
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You are all correct. The animal was on a leash and it always is on walks and common areas, but that is not always the case. For some reason she does let the leash go slack when there are no people or dogs in the area and she is working with it either brushing it or teaching it tricks. In this situation, she had it on a leash; but she is not a large women and I suspect the dog outweighs her. I feel certain I could not hold it back and she was clearly struggling to do so. She is a very sweet woman who truly needs her pet for various reasons, but even a service animal can be removed if it doesn't meet the terms of a the lease. Since the incident with Sully, who is clearly a neighborhood favorite, she and her dog have lost some support in this small housing development for elderly and disabled residents. Clearly Sully would not provoke an attack and there mus have be some signs of aggression that were noticed by others before and dismissed by the owner. I may have to take a stand sooner or later but I will try not to do anything rash. Thanks for all the input! By the way Anna, the reason theogony took off after Sully, I think, is territorial. It is not good with any dogs, which is not typical of service animals. It is good. With some people, including me, sometimes, if Sullynis not with me. Very unpredictible temperament.
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