Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on August 18, 2012 at 4:50pm

Did you make a copy of the AKC papers? How long have you been waiting? It takes a few weeks sometimes.

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Permalink Reply by AmandaFay, Brendan and Wheatley on August 18, 2012 at 5:02pm

We filled the papers in May. It's August and we haven't recieved anything.

 

Please understand that I'm not looking to become a breeder.

I  legitimately want one litter of puppies. We just want another Wheatley (and we understand that they may not be just like him).

Also, We had contacted SEVERAL breeders. There are not very many in the area. When we found Wheatley, we were simply on a mission to interact with corgi pups before committing to a deposit with a Breeder. Brendan fell in love with Wheatley at the store and we couldn't bear to let him stay in the cage with his brothers and sisters anymore. We decided we had to take hime home.

I understand why the community would advocate responsible breeding, but declaring that my dog is a "poorly Bred Puppy mill pup", especially when I listed the breeder in the original question, was a poor way to advocate anything.  

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Ludi on August 18, 2012 at 5:36pm

First of all, I didn't declare that your dog IS a poorly-bred puppy mill dog. I said it was probable that he is one, though, because of the situation as YOU described it. You said it yourself that you haven't been able to get through to the Registry or the pet store itself to get "papers". A reputable breeder does NOT: sell their puppies to a pet store, then go radio silent when it comes to supplying the provenance details of their progeny.

Also, googling "Mary Blaine pet shop" gave me THIS: http://www.petshoppuppies.com/report.asp?ID=73A1481. This same person was also mentioned on a Maltese forum as the "breeder" for a pet store-bought Maltese. And now you are saying you bought a Corgi from, likely the same person. The chances that this person is running a puppy mill (multiple breeds, all business done through pet stores) are TOO HIGH TO IGNORE.

Sorry that you hate me, but I am harsh because I think you are making a humongous mistake breeding your dog. There is no guarantee whatsoever that you aren't going to pass on whatever underlying genetic problems this dog could have. Are you even willing to get his hips tested, and do a full genetic panel of both dam and sire? Why can't your pet just stay a pet? Why does it HAVE to have a litter? You can do whatever you want with your dog, and I'm 99% sure you'll just ignore this post and breed your dog anyway, but I have a moral obligation to speak up when I think someone is doing a huge, ethical mistake. You're breeding your dog for completely the wrong reasons. That's the truth, sorry that it hurts.

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Permalink Reply by Amber and Kirby on August 23, 2012 at 3:43am

amen.

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Permalink Reply by Melissa and Franklin! on August 18, 2012 at 5:31pm

Here is a website I found that is free and researches pet store puppies and where they came from. Perhaps they will include a name of sire/dam or sires/dams that breeder owns and breeds. Since you don't care so much about the pet being purebred or AKC standard, it will at least possibly list names of dogs in the lineage for you to avoid when you breed your dog.
http://www.petshoppuppies.com/request.asp

 

I have to agree with everyone else on the breeding issue. Also, nobody is trying to say anything bad about you or your dog, its just a very well known fact that puppies from pet stores come from puppy mills. As others have said, no reputable breeder will sell their puppies to a pet store. Reputable breeders will only sell the puppy directly to its new home with a guarantee that should anything arise where you can no longer keep the puppy, it goes back to the breeder. A reputable breeder would also NEVER allow a dog to be registered AKC and be used as a breeding dog unless it went to a show home. You have already made up your mind about what you want to do with your dog, its just important to know that you have no history on your dog, you have no idea who the parents are, what health issues they may or may not have, etc so just be prepared to potentially have a litter of 6 or so puppies that may need to be delivered via c-section and may or may not have heart, eye, DM, IVDD, severe allergies, or skeletal problems in the future. A search of the breeder you listed comes up with no informtation other than she is a licensed commercial dog breeder, no webpage, no info about her dogs and zero show records. My dog did not come from a repuatable breeder so I am not saying this to talk bad about your dog in anyway, I'm just saying this to point out all the issues you may face when you are raising your future litter as well as while you are raising your current puppy. I hope you at least wait until your dog is 2+ years old to breed so you can see how he develops and matures both physically and psychologically.

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Permalink Reply by AmandaFay, Brendan and Wheatley on August 18, 2012 at 6:04pm

Melissa: Of course, we would wait to see how he matures. I only posted because I was concerned with how long our lineage has taken to come in the mail. And we are absolutely willing and able to care for any problems our little buddies might have. So far, Wheat's tests have all been fantastic. He's a healthy smart and beautiful boy.

And Thank you for the link.

 

Ludi: No, I don't hate you. I don't hate anyone. I think you were very rude in the way decided to react. We HAVE had his hips tested and he will get them looked at again before he is two, per the vet's recommendations (he was not fully mature and I was told sometimes things can not be detected until later).We have and will continue to make sure that every medical need is taken care of. And because we want to have his offspring to raise and love, we are breeding him for the wrong reasons? And the right reason are? To "purify the breed"? Are you a geneticist?  I'm not sure why you are so blatantly against there being a small family of short-legged furry creatures in OUR home, but you last statements come across mush like a well-known German fellow who tried to make a "super-human aryan race "...

 

Thank you to all of those who actually contributed to the question I asked. I appreciate the links and I will be trying yet again to get through to the registry on Monday (fingers crossed for no busy signal!). And thank you to those of you who gave me a laugh, as well.

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Permalink Reply by Ludi on August 18, 2012 at 6:11pm

you last statements come across mush like a well-known German fellow who tried to make a "super-human aryan race "...

 

... Are you serious with this? You compared me to Hitler because I think it's irresponsible to breed your pet store puppy? If my opinion of you weren't already tarnished by the fact that you blew off the flow chart on "Should I breed my dog" because it was telling you an answer that you didn't like (as in, don't breed your dog), this seals it.

 

Thanks for the laughs, too. Can't wait to tell my husband that he's married to Hitler because I took a stand against unethical breeding.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on August 18, 2012 at 6:21pm

I DO want to point out, too, that breeding can be heart-breaking and challenging.  We got our dogs from someone who has been breeding for 30 years.  She had one litter right before Jack's that the bitch needed an emergency spay because she would not stop bleeding.  They hoped to put the pups on another bitch, but the litter was big (I think 9), the other litter they had around the same time was similarly large, and a third litter (they co-breed between about 3 homes under their kennel name; all are house dogs) they thought might be a help was old enough the bitch's milk had already dried up.

So they had to hand feed them for five weeks, meaning every 3 hours around the clock (day and night) for five weeks while holding down a job and caring for their other dogs, and socializing their other puppies. 

We have all heard lots of sad stories if we've been around here long enough.  Whole litters lost to parvo, pups from previously healthy lines that suddenly had a recessive health-problem crop up, three-year old dogs that suddenly had to be given up and were sent back to the breeder for rehoming, bitches that went after pups or ignored them, bitches that almost died from eclampsia, bitches that had stuck puppies in the middle of a snow storm.  

Corgis are not problematic whelpers the way, say, Frenchies are, but they are also not the freest whelpers in the world and it is not at all unusual that they need help.

It is not something for the faint-hearted and if you are not an experienced owner yourself the best thing to do is to pair up with an experienced breeder who can help you.   The breeding experience itself is also not for the faint of heart; many bitches resist mounting and need to be either forced to stand or need to be artificially inseminated.  Once a stud dog has been bred he will want to breed again and his behavior may change.  There is a lot to know and again you will need someone to work with.  

The Hitler references are all well and good but the fact is, with purebred dogs you are dealing with incredibly tiny gene pools.  Most registered dogs are the genetic equivalent of cousins or nephews to ALL the other dogs of their breed.  That is why genetic testing and health testing are so terribly important, JUST LIKE states that allow human cousins to marry strongly encourage all sorts of genetic testing before the couple has children.   And it is important to know the background of both dogs' families because the HUGE majority of genetic illnesses have no tests or screening devices (many cancers and auto-immune diseases, as well as many forms of epilepsy, have no genetic test and no screening test).   

So again, even if you get pedigrees, without knowing the background of your dogs' family's health and temperament, you are likely doing the equivalent of letting cousins marry without knowing the family tree if you breed him.   

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Permalink Reply by Beth on August 18, 2012 at 6:23pm

Also, as someone else pointed out, since AKC does not require DNA testing, the pedigree is only as good as the word of the breeder.  She can say the stud dog is anyone she wants to say it is, and unless the stud dog's owner says "Hey, no, that's not right!" there is no way of knowing.  I've seen quite a lot of pet shop Corgis who look suspiciously like they have a fair amount of terrier in them to me.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on August 18, 2012 at 6:36pm

I found two references for a Mary Blaine.   One person here claims that she is a breeder in Missouri (one of the top puppy-mill states).  And there is a USDA (puppy mill) registered breeder by that name in Oklahoma.

Since you are in Maryland....

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Permalink Reply by Ludi on August 18, 2012 at 6:39pm

Pet stores do source from out of the immediate region, though, depending on availability and what breeds tend to be "popular". There is a store just outside of my city that was selling Cane Corso pups who were all the way from Toulouse, and that is well over 7 hours away by car. The "big guy" dogs tend to be popular here, much to my chagrin, as they are the favoured pets of idiots who think that whipping and kicking their dogs in public gets them ladies and respect.

So, is it the same Mary Blaine who supplied this pet store? Possibly.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on August 18, 2012 at 6:47pm

Oh yes, I definitely am aware of that!  That's actually what I was alluding to.  Commercial (puppy mill) breeders treat dogs like livestock and ship all over the country.

Sadly, since the word is getting out on puppy mills here, the new thing is to send whole litters to individual homes where people pose as a sister, friend, mother etc of the "breeder" and the pups had to be taken out of the home because the "breeder" was a) sick with the flu or b) busy caring for a sick dog or c) the other dogs in the house didn't like the puppies or d) had to visit a sick relative.   And so you see an ad in the paper, go to a house with an entire litter and a seemingly valid excuse as to where the bitch is, and are none the wiser.

I actually DON'T believe that all dogs should be from show lines; I think that it is perfectly ok to breed hunting/working dogs who actually do a job, or exceptionally well-mannered pet dogs who have no serious health or conformation problems; I believe the standard for breeding has gotten too narrow and we are seeing dogs suffer genetically as a result.

However, I believe that everyone who breeds should both health-test where appropriate and know enough about conformation and family tree to avoid big pitfalls, and there are very few people who do all that and DON'T compete with their dogs.  I think some working herding people do, but that's about it.  

So I really wish more people would breed and the bar to disqualify dogs from breeding needs to be reset.  I just think that it is very likely that this particular dog comes from a puppy farm somewhere and I hate to see that perpetuated.

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