How Far is Too Far?
Oh, my crazy crazy life! I currently have 4 dogs in my house, 2 males and 2 females, one intact and one altered of each sex. So naturally, there are arguments here and there. Now, I try to let my dogs be dogs and work things out on their own. I know it's good for them to learn the rules, and especially for my 8 month old intact male, I really appreciate the older dogs correcting him. They do a much better job keeping him in line than I ever could! However, I sometimes wonder if there should be a line drawn somewhere. I have two main questions about this.
1) To what point do I let it escalate or do I just let them work it out completely on their own? I don't mind so much that it sounds nasty and scary because there has never once been blood, but I do get annoyed when it starts going on for 30+ seconds because neither dog will back down. It's just loud and distracting from whatever I'm trying to do. Lyla, the corgi, is especially a bully and has been starting to tick the other dogs off lately, which means they are fighting back, which means that the arguments are typically not stopping for several minutes and/or until I stop them.
2) Is it appropriate to stop an argument if it starts or comes too close to me or another person? I am NOT okay with them using their mouths near people, and I am not comfortable with them getting into tussles, say, on my lap (it has happened). I would really like them to learn to keep their arguments away from people.
I would love to hear from some of you that have larger "packs" at your house and deal with these kinds of issues on a regular basis. I by no means expect or even want the corrections to stop, I just want to be able to have a peaceful evening without dog teeth flying near my face, lol!
1) To what point do I let it escalate or do I just let them work it out completely on their own? I don't mind so much that it sounds nasty and scary because there has never once been blood, but I do get annoyed when it starts going on for 30+ seconds because neither dog will back down. It's just loud and distracting from whatever I'm trying to do. Lyla, the corgi, is especially a bully and has been starting to tick the other dogs off lately, which means they are fighting back, which means that the arguments are typically not stopping for several minutes and/or until I stop them.
2) Is it appropriate to stop an argument if it starts or comes too close to me or another person? I am NOT okay with them using their mouths near people, and I am not comfortable with them getting into tussles, say, on my lap (it has happened). I would really like them to learn to keep their arguments away from people.
I would love to hear from some of you that have larger "packs" at your house and deal with these kinds of issues on a regular basis. I by no means expect or even want the corrections to stop, I just want to be able to have a peaceful evening without dog teeth flying near my face, lol!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
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That is a really good point about the fact that you may punish the wrong dog. I only restrict the one that did not listen when I said "knock it off". Kids are the same because you never could be sure who actually started it. Their relationships are very complicated just like human's are.
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Permalink Reply by Ashley and Copper on
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It's actually weird that I just got on and saw this. I'm dog sitting for my mom today and brought Copper with me. My mom's long haired chihuahua, Lupe, has a grudge against Copper for some reason and is ALWAYS snarky to him.I normally let it go because Copper doesn't like to fight and will normally walk away. Today was not the day! Lupe bit Copper in the face 3 times for NO reason. Copper was playing with my mom's german shepherd pup and Lupe just kept getting in it and biting Cop until Cop snapped back and then it went a little too far. I did get up and break it up and I told them both no. Lupe went running to his bed. I don't like to play favorites because like Joanna said, it leaves the issue unsolved and also because then the dog that got punished is probably resentful. When we had our two male shepherds (father and son) and they were switching dominant roles as the father was getting older, they were fighting badly for a while. Those fights had to be broken up. Had we not broken them up, I'm sure one of them would have been killed. It's even harder for big dogs because they can do so much more damage. There was one time my mother called me crying and I could hear the boys fighting in the background, I was ten minutes away. When I got to my mom's, they were still going at it until I stepped in and told them that was enough. It may have been stupid on my part but I have no fear and I am in charge. I have NEVER been bitten. When that fight was said and done, I was cleaning wounds and holes from teeth on each of them as they licked each other, professing their love. lol Ridiculous! I do believe in allowing them to correct each other and let each other know what needs to be done but going to attack, rip each other to shreds mode, is NOT okay with any dog that is in my care. I, for one, have seen the fights and aftermath of BIG dogs and if you allow it to get too bad, you could end up with one in bad shape or killed.
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Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on
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Just remember that it's never for no reason. Dogs are never random. Chihuahuas do not like chaos and they do NOT like impolite dogs, and they tend to be rule-keepers. I would imagine that she thought Copper and the shepherd puppy were getting too rough and she wanted to tell them to stop it. It's the kind of thing that if I saw it happening, I'd probably tell Copper and the shepherd to cool it and stop stressing Lupe out so much.
Shepherds (especially working line) are one of the breeds that you cannot expect to live in endless groups without intervention. Corgis yes, most other herding breeds yes, most of the hounds yes, not Shepherds, not Danes, not Chows or Shar Peis or any of the historic fighting breeds, etc. You have to know the breed to know what to expect. Herding dogs should have a very intact bite inhibition and a clear line between punishment and predation; that's what makes them able to exist in large groups. Breeds that have been deliberately selected to blur the line between punishment and predatory mouths should not be expected to co-exist without extremely strict supervision.
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Lupe is a male (not being smart, just clear as what I say next will make more sense) and he is the most calm and loving chihuahua I have ever seen. He is very docile, laid back and basically loves everyone. He has never snapped at anyone and I really can't believe he is a chihuahua. Chica on the other hand (my mom's female long haired chihuahua is EXACTLY what you just described. We call Chica the bone lady and she wants and DEMANDS everyone stay in line and that no one get too rough. She will specifically come out of the bedroom to yell at everyone, bite one of the dogs if she has to and go back to her room. The shepherd pup and my mom's black lab play fight all the time (Isabell, the black lab, is like everyone's mother) and Lupe never acts like that to them. I have taken Cop there since he was a pup and he's over there all the time. I thought for the longest time, and sometimes still do, that Lupe does not like Copper because he thought we were trying to pass him off as Pooh. Pooh was my first corgi that died last February and Pooh and Lupe were best friends. We got them 4 months apart and Lupe was my mom's first baby in her new house; being the first of all of her inside dogs. Ever since Pooh has been gone, Lupe will still go out to look in my car for him. Copper tries to be Lupe's friend but Lupe NEVER wants anything to do with him. So, all that being said, what do you think now? If Copper even walks past Lupe going to get a drink of water, Lupe growls. If Copper tries to lay next to Lupe, Lup will either get up and walk away, growl, or snap at him. What gets me and my mom is that he is, like I said, NEVER like that to anyone! He does get a little snarky with the puppy but the puppy is three times his size and bites his tail. I don't get it.
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Permalink Reply by Shepdog on
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Shepherds (especially working line) are one of the breeds that you cannot expect to live in endless groups without intervention. Corgis yes, most other herding breeds yes, most of the hounds yes, not Shepherds, not Danes, not Chows or Shar Peis or any of the historic fighting breeds, etc.
Now, I had two intact male Shepherds-- one working, one show, and a show female all in the house at the same time. I will say it was actually a wonderful group of Shepherds -- my working line dog was as soft and passive as a marshmallow and had no inspirations of ever being a top dog with any dog. He was the sort of dog that rolled over to kids, happily. The other male was a soft-heart too, he was totally happy just to hang out and be guys with his best friend.
However, my female was as hard as nails; I trusted her with my household because she knew the rules and they were set down from the very beginning. She was a fabulous obedience dog, a fabulous working dog, and a fabulous show dog, and the dog I would clone in a heartbeat... but man, she was truly a dominant bi--- yeah, you all know the word. People would come over with their Shepherds and it was always "rotate, move, observe" -- everyone had to be on their toes all the time.
I will say a lot of Shepherds -- uh, don't have the best dog manners. :/ It's like they're so geared towards their person (and so, so attached to them at the hip) that they don't get a lot of dog confidence and tend to roar and scream at strange dogs because they're honestly scared of the other dog -- not aggressive, like a lot of people think. One of the things I've come to find over the years is that often owners come to me asking why a Shepherd is lunging at other dogs on walks -- 8 times out of 10, when the owner backs away from his lunging,snarling dog, the dog has a meltdown and backs off of the other dog. They're relying on the owner for protection; they're actually afraid.
Of course, fear in that breed often triggers a bite on the other dog, even if they're just wandering over to say hi.
I had 14 Cardis at my house a few months ago, including three intact males; and not a single issue after the pecking order was established. It was like wonderfully controlled chaos. We were all sitting in the living room, talking and the dogs were all happily sleeping, picking playing partners, and sharing toys with each other. It was so zen it was awesome. I've had three strange dogs here for socialization for the last few months, and they've fit right in as easy as pie. In fact, one's sleeping in the basket with Simon right now. ;)
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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Most of the Shepherds I've met were incredibly shy with other dogs. We just met a big, goofy, bouncy male the size of a pony a week or so ago who adored every dog he saw, but that seems to be the exception rather than the rule.
We met a shy female walking through the park. She and Maddie snarked at each other at the same time and both scared each other away. It was sort of amusing. It was very lovely to watch Jack do his thing to charm her; the Shepherd girl would back off and Jack would lie down. The shepherd would approach to sniff Jack and he'd let her, then he'd go to sniff her and she'd back off so he'd lie down. This went on for some minutes, but once the girl got the idea that Jack would lie down, and not pursue her when she fled, she became a friendly tail-wagger who thought Jack was just the bestest thing ever.
Maddie still scared the pants off her, though. :-)
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*laughs* Yup, my big goofy guy was also the exception to the rule - he was uh, not very Shepherdish in many respects. Is it a word? Sure, it is now. ;) I've seen more boys with that friendly attitude than girls, for sure. But a lot of of the time that snarking is truly fear -- and then people think it's aggression and chokehold the dog on the lead, which makes the dog even more fearful, and the person even more afraid of their dog attacking other dogs. :/ Vicious cycle, especially with a big dog like a Shepherd, who already has a rep of being aggressive.
Hahaha, well, girl Corgis are pretty scary! ;) Ask my boys, they'll agree!
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