The myth (and sometimes outright deception) of "Champion bloodlines."
One of the cardinal ways to recognize a breeder who is what we in the show-breeding world would call less than reputable is that they will talk about "Champion lines" or "Championship pedigree."
Here's why this is such a bad sign:
- It means absolutely nothing when it comes to the quality of the dog. Most of the offspring of a champion dog are not good enough to warrant breeding; the possibility of genuinely breeding-quality dogs becomes even more remote when the champion relative is a grandparent or great-grandparent.
- It shows that the breeder knows enough that they realize that successful show dogs make the best producers of pet dogs, but that they don't want to put in the effort, time, and money (and passion) to prove their OWN dogs in the show ring. It's very common for that type of breeder, when pushed, to say that avoiding the show ring is a virtue, that they don't want to "stress" their dogs by showing them. But then why do they brag that the owners of their dog's grandparents did so?
- Very often the price of the puppies goes up according to how many champions are in the pedigree, as though that makes the dog worth more. You should realize that buying a pet puppy from a good show breeder, and getting a pedigree that is entirely champions and not only champions but nationally ranked dogs, Westminster winners, "household names" in corgidom, is often cheaper than buying from those breeders. I don't care how much glory is attached to a breeding I do; the number-one bitch bred to the number-one dog is still going to have a bunch of pet puppies in the litter. And you can AND SHOULD be insisting on THAT level of quality in the breeder.
If you want a poorly bred Corgi, go rescue one. Please. Almost certainly that dog in a cage at the shelter has just as many champion ancestors as the average careless breeder's dogs do. And DO recognize that the words "champion lines" on a website or ad is a HUGE red flag and should encourage you to run away.
Here's why this is such a bad sign:
- It means absolutely nothing when it comes to the quality of the dog. Most of the offspring of a champion dog are not good enough to warrant breeding; the possibility of genuinely breeding-quality dogs becomes even more remote when the champion relative is a grandparent or great-grandparent.
- It shows that the breeder knows enough that they realize that successful show dogs make the best producers of pet dogs, but that they don't want to put in the effort, time, and money (and passion) to prove their OWN dogs in the show ring. It's very common for that type of breeder, when pushed, to say that avoiding the show ring is a virtue, that they don't want to "stress" their dogs by showing them. But then why do they brag that the owners of their dog's grandparents did so?
- Very often the price of the puppies goes up according to how many champions are in the pedigree, as though that makes the dog worth more. You should realize that buying a pet puppy from a good show breeder, and getting a pedigree that is entirely champions and not only champions but nationally ranked dogs, Westminster winners, "household names" in corgidom, is often cheaper than buying from those breeders. I don't care how much glory is attached to a breeding I do; the number-one bitch bred to the number-one dog is still going to have a bunch of pet puppies in the litter. And you can AND SHOULD be insisting on THAT level of quality in the breeder.
If you want a poorly bred Corgi, go rescue one. Please. Almost certainly that dog in a cage at the shelter has just as many champion ancestors as the average careless breeder's dogs do. And DO recognize that the words "champion lines" on a website or ad is a HUGE red flag and should encourage you to run away.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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As far as working dogs making good pets, it depends on the breed. Surely a working-line German Shepherd would be too much dog for most people. A "working" Shepherd is meant to be handled by professionals or advanced amateurs doing Schutzhund or police or army work, or search-and-rescue, etc. As a working dog, they are intense. A working pointer was meant to be worked (usually) from horseback and could run all day, at a fair clip. A working Border Collie is too much dog for anyone who lacks a farm or a backyard agility course, or both.
A working cocker spaniel, or many working setters, on the other hand were close-working gun dogs that were meant to go out hunting on the weekends or evenings, and only in hunting season, and be a family dog the whole rest of the time. Lay by the fire, play with the kids, etc. They were always house dogs and generally owned by regular folks, just like you and me. Get them out running once a week or so and they are usually good, and shame on the people who breed them just to look pretty with no regard to function. The coats and ears on some of them mean they can't even go in the field without being clipped.
A working Corgi was a small farmer's companion and general farm dog, and I would be surprised if they would have the intense drive of a Border Collie, say.
Form should be for the function, and if the Cardi people are so involved with herding I admire them for that. It is the exception in the show world, and not the rule. There are very few breeds that can claim lots of dogs with both conformation and working titles. Chessies, Gordon Setters, Brittanies in the gun group. I don't know about herders. I've seen a handful of Pemmie pedigrees with titles after their names as well as before.
The horse people in some breeds have done the same thing, and those that win in the halter classes are often next thing to worthless in the under-saddles. In Europe they do things a bit differently with the horses, and the young potential breeding stock is generally shown loose-jumping and the like; they don't want ones that just look pretty and move pretty but don't have that athleticism, which is probably why most of the top English competition horses in this country were bred overseas.
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Permalink Reply by Shepdog on
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*laughs* I've been showing cats since I was four, and dogs off and on since I was a teenager. Horses too. I find that there's a lot more folks in the show world doing a lot of dual things now then there ever were on a lot of the dogs. Do you show or have you worked dogs in the past yourself? (Ah, never mind, sorry - I see you were involved in a working dog household.)
I'll be up front and honest with you. I have never, ever seen a working Cocker. I wish I had, I heard that they made excellent gun dogs and family dogs. I think out of all the breeds the sporting breeds have taken some of the worst hits with people who've not done their research breeding "pet" dogs.
Unfortunately, nearly all the Cockers I've met over the last years (no disrespect intended to those who have Cockers) weren't anything I'd ever suggest as a pet. Now, not only can most of them not hunt their way out of a paper bag... Most have been ill-tempered, unpleasant dogs with massive health problems and right on the nose were bred with people who didn't do any research on the breed they were breeding. And I hate to say it, the Goldens and the Labs. :/
Good lord, I have to deal with people every day who think they're just a couch potato dog who needs no work, because as you know, they've got the reputation of being friendly with people. I swear, I meet more of them who sure aren't now. In fact, whenever I meet a calm, mellow, member of either of those breeds I find myself remarking on it in sort of an odd awe outside of my SAR folks or CCI people or the Guide Dogs.
I don't blame either the show or the working breeders for that, these are the 'throw Muffy and Fluffy' together and have pretty babies dogs; seems like almost all of them I meet are just bred that way. Pretty sad, actually.
As far as intensity? You should come out and see these Cardis work. I actually was floored by it - no, they don't have the speed or the flash of a BC, but I will say out of all the dogs I've owned, only one comes close to my older Cardi in intensity once he gets his game face on.
I see very few Pembrokes titled on both ends. Then again, I saw very few Shepherds titled at both ends. However, you're looking at the sad and true fact that jobs for many dogs are things of the past. Heck, I drive three hours to herd.
As far as horses go - well, they're even more split than dogs into lines of use.
(Also, just off subject a bit - a Chessie is the only breed I'd personally consider owning out of the sporting group now. I love them - but again, I'd personally not consider them a breed for the average everyday pet owner. They're pretty intense dogs in their own right - and the fact that they've not gone mainstream like many of the Sporting Dogs is what has kept them from becoming something else.)
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Besides being in a working dog household, I also used to do some riding in horse shows, at a very small scale--- nothing big time.
I also remember the days where, at least in the East, half the households around seemed to own a Beagle. And they were bred by some guy up the street's grandfather who had a good little bitch and sent her off to some nice stud he'd heard about in the next town over... well, you get the idea. Joanna made a point in another post that the working dog people can be tough (from our point of view) on pups and unhealthy pups are "culled." It sounds mean, but then again in a more natural world that would happen and the flip side of the argument is that the show people (and the pet people to some degree) by going to great lengths to save every puppy has contributed to the rise of genetic diseases. I don't know the answer to that, and I know in my heart that I would need to try to save every puppy, but the more scientific part of me also sees value in letting nature take its course when it comes to animals.
As for the spaniels, there are a handful of people breeding working English Cockers and they are meant to be lovely dogs. Spaniels got out of control when they became very popular as pets. A good spaniel is a relatively soft and slightly shy dog, and without extensive and proper socialization they can become aggressive as a result (as is true of any dog that tends to be a bit fearful). So get together a bunch of high-production pet breeders who are breeding indiscriminately, toss in a few weeks of crucial early socialization that are spent in a cage instead, add in the fact that many bad breeders let their litters go at a too-early six weeks, and finish off with a novice owner who knows nothing about setting boundaries, and you get a neurotic, biting, nasty spaniel as a result.
Yes, the Chessies are lovely but man they are also tough. I agree they are not for an inexperienced owner. My father had a heck of a time with his through adolescence. Talk about a dog challenging for authority! There are not many dogs I would truly label "alpha" but I think quite a few Chessies fall into that role, and they will try to assert their authority in some unpleasant ways. However, once she came out of adolescence with the idea she is not in charge, she is a wonderful dog, and is truly the whole package. She's smart, affectionate, responsive, and supposedly a heck of a hunter (though I've not seen her work).
My male Pem is very intense, too, but in a different way. I feel I'm not using him to his full ability, as we've gone through CGC and TDI and no higher. I'd love to try herding but trainers are hard to find so we might try agility instead. He is very focused when he's working on something, but unlike many Border Collies I've seen, he can actually turn it off too! LOL
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Permalink Reply by Heather and Ella on
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"the Corgi is from the herding group. I know most pet owners don't plan on herding"
I'm learning a great deal by reading these posts. And since I have no experience with any of this, I was content to just read and not comment. However this sentence jumped out at me. Although most of us who have "house pet" corgis don't plan on our dogs herding, they usually have a different idea. Ella has never seen sheep and has never been trained to herd, but she definitely knows how to herd EVERYTHING. It could be people, it could be toys, tennis balls, leaves, to her it doesn't matter what the item is; but they all need to be in a group and in the place she wants them. Oh yes she will herd whatever she finds, LOL.
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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
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You bring up some interesting points. It is a very confusing world out there when it comes to registered dogs. It really helps to take the time to really talk to the potential breeder. I know my main concern was temperment but I really wanted a breeder that also tested for some of the possible defects and that usually means a breeder that shows. The show world is a very subjective world too when it comes to attaining championship points. For most owners it gets confusing but I think it is worth the effort. Afterall we hope to add a long time family member and should do everything we can to educate ourselves! Thanks for talking about this.
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One thing I found is the good breeders will usually talk and talk about their dogs, and keep you talking for ages too.
I attributed this to passion for their dogs and breed, and I think that is it to a large extent. But I also talked to a breeder once, from which I ended up not getting a puppy (it was nothing wrong with the breeder, it just didn't work out timing-wise) and after she said she thought I was a wonderful Corgi owner, and I mentioned the long phone conversations, she let on that they do that because it gives them a good sense of the potential owner, and if there are potential issues with the potential owner, they are bound to trip up over a couple of one-hour conversations. LOL
In my own mind, if I don't feel like I'm in a job interview when I'm talking to a breeder, then I will move on to someone else.
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Permalink Reply by John Wolff on
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Hey Beth & Joanna,
I've found this an interesting conversation. Perhaps you can answer a question:
As someone who owns and loves my companion dogs, I really don't give a rat's ass about herding anything but a soccer ball, and I get the feeling that breeds like GSDs and Golden Retrievers and Pembrokes that were originally working dogs but happen to make great companion animals get diverted into pet breeding, and their original function diluted or lost.
Are there many actual working corgis in North America? Where are they? How are they used? If my Al had to suddenly get a real job and make a living, where and what would it be....?
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I think there are a relatively small number of hobbiests who actually use their Corgis as working farm dogs. Kerry Swain who posts here does. I have gone online and found Corgis working on feed lots, separating and moving cattle. They are meant to be quite good at it. The breeder we used also does rescue and she had a rescue she placed on a small sheep farm, herding sheep.
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Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on
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Lore Bruder (Bluetrix) works her Cardigans on cattle. Lots of breeders have a few sheep or a few ducks to keep their dogs' heads in the game but the original type of farm that corgis (of both breeds) were developed for doesn't really exist anymore. It doesn't exist in Wales either (they find border collies to be much more useful), which is why the breeds were disappearing fast before it became fashionable around the turn of the last century for rich people to discover breeds or re-create ancient breeds.
Cardigans were supposed to be used in small, rocky hill farms with a variety of animals and a few tens of acres to cover. Pems would, I believe, have similar jobs but for some reason they wanted the more spitz-type dog so they bred in the Vallhunds.
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Joanna, I also wanted to add the obvious: there are not nearly enough people competing in dog sports and also breeding to meet the demand for companion animals. Not nearly.
Give me a responsible pet breeder, who health tests and contracts and will take back puppies that need rehoming, who interviews and finds suitable homes and follows up with her puppies to make sure no weird health issues keep cropping up---- give me that over the puppy mills and "whoops, my unspayed dog got out" breeders any day of the week.
Where would you have all the pets come from? Or would you just think that a lot of people with dogs should not have them?
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I think that we have to attract good breeders who want to provide the whole package. And we have to completely remove the market for bad breeders. There are MANY corgi breeders who can't sell all their puppies, sometimes for months, because people think that buying a $200 "corgy" from the newspaper is a great deal and didn't they make a fabulous decision when those show breeders are ripping you off for $1000.
People need to understand that it's like a car; you should be VERY suspicious of a car selling for cheap, and you should have expectations for proven quality, a warranty, and "dealer" support.
Responsible pet breeders ARE show (or field, or sport) breeders. A responsible pet breeder should be proving that their dogs' bodies are sound enough to be worth breeding; should be proving that their dogs' brains work properly; should be proving that their dogs' temperaments are good. THEN you can start talking about health testing or contracts.
How many of those breeders advertise "great temperaments" "smart" "obedient" or any of the other words that are associated with the breed they're selling, but nobody ever asks them to prove it? It's false advertising and it SHOULD make you infuriated, as a pet consumer.
The vast, vast majority of poorly bred dogs, the ones that fill shelters and sit in backyards and make trainers' lives hell, in this country, are from "pet breeders." I'd rather have them called puppy mills, honestly, since they breed their dogs for profit and with the bottom line in mind. There are actually only a few thousand high-volume puppy factories in the US, and the number of accidental litters is dropping precipitously all over the country.
The ones producing all the puppies are the pet breeders, ALL OF WHOM call themselves "responsible" and talk about how carefully they talk to their buyers and so on. Have you ever seen one say "Yeah, I don't really care about who buys my dogs"? Of course not. They all insist that they're the cream of the crop and we should be thrilled that they're out there producing such nice pet dogs. They use the right catchphrases - "carefully bred," "we're very selective" and so on. But when you ask what that means - what do they mean by "carefully bred" - they usually respond with something about how nice the two dogs' personalities are, or how soft their coats are, or their pretty markings. What you SHOULD be hearing is absolutely NOTHING about those superficial traits. You can (and should) go to any pound in the nation and choose a soft, pretty-marked, sweet dog if that's what you want. What you should be hearing from a good breeder is what makes their dogs uniquely suited to not only be pets but be corgis, or be Bichons, or be Malamutes, or be Newfoundlands, or be Border-Staffie flyball mixes.
Remember, good rescues ALSO offer contracts, and followup, and support. If you aren't going to offer anything more than that, you are just taking a home that a rescue dog should have.
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Hmmm. Joanna, you are really disregarding my very important points that the show people have ruined several breeds for their originaly purpose by not taking any regard for the function that is meant to be the result of the form. The form of a hunting dog is nothing without the nose.
The breed standard of an ESS dictates the ears meet in front of the nose. Why? I know for a fact that very few hunting ESS's have ears that long, as they are generally a detriment in the field. The field-bred Springers have a higher ear carriage and enough ear to protect the canal from brush, but not so long as to get tangled.
The same with coat. The breed standard on several of the gun dogs calls for a long coat that would tangle in brush.
The famous Collie head came from breeding in Borzoi, I believe it was, and had nothing to do with function and everything to do with fashion.
The show people created several breeds that can't reproduce naturally. What sort of function is that?
What you are saying is ignoring some of the very issues that keep quite a lot of responsible breeders far away from the show ring. You speak with an insider's knowledge, which is fine, but you are painting a picture that is not necessarily matched by what has happened to many breeds.
I'm not saying the bench people in all breeds disregard function at all, but many of them have and I can't really see them as being in all cases the best arbiters of which dogs should be bred.
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