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Permalink Reply by steve smith on January 20, 2012 at 4:53pm

I dont know of anyone that is offended at this post. I like them all standard or not.

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Permalink Reply by Jane on January 20, 2012 at 5:17pm

I've seen this topic a lot on show breeder's blogs, so it must happen pretty frequently. The really nice dog gets overlooked because it doesn't "match" the other dogs in the ring, or a nice dog with one average fault gets overlooked for a dog with a ton of small faults. I guess in the end it is all up to the judge's opinion. And I could see if a judge ONLY works in the midwest, that they might get used to seeing a certain look or type, and tend to always lean towards that when judging.

 

I'm no expert on breeding so I can't really comment on that part of your post, but I do see a lot of cardi breeders line breeding their dogs. I think Luke has the same dog in his pedigree 3 times...

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Permalink Reply by Beth on January 20, 2012 at 5:24pm

As far as breeding, breeders do tend to line breed a lot to "fix" certain features, but at some point many of them will bring in another unrelated line to add a feature they like from that line, then breed back into their own line to try to get back the consistency lost with the outcross.   Jack's sire, Dundee, came from overseas and while he has a lot of a popular English kennel at the top, I think part of the reason he was so popular is he was a bit of an outcross for a lot of breeders who had been back and forth in each other's lines for generations.   

Our breeder was bringing in frozen semen from a dog out in Washington (I'm in PA).  Not sure what his lines were, but if they will breed to an out-of-state dog I don't know why they would not breed to an in-state dog with out-of-state lines.  

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Permalink Reply by Beth on January 20, 2012 at 6:18pm

I wanted to comment on the "standard vs popular look."  I've seen that same post on some Cardi breeders' blogs, so I'm guessing it's been a topic of conversation.  I must say that Cardi's vary more in type than Pems and I've seen varied types with titles at the front, so I'm not sure how true it is in that particular breed.   I know that Joanna Kimball finished her dog in New England and she was from Pecan Valley out in Arkansas, so again I don't know how much stock I put in that for Cardigans.  For other breeds, perhaps.  

I suppose it speaks to how certain types get fashionable.  Why is it that GSD's who can hardly stand because of their angulation not only go BOB, but win the Group or the Show?  Ten years ago you didn't see one GSD that stood that way and now they all do.  I don't know how it happens.  It may be something to do with what the article mentions.

How did we end up with Basset Hounds that are so ponderously heavy that they can't run a rabbit?  Or how about this from the English Springer Spaniel standard:  "On ears, chest, legs and belly the Springer is nicely furnished with a fringe of feathering of moderate length and heaviness."     Yet the furnishings on the front of all the ESS's you see at the big shows practically drag on the ground--- worthless in a hunting dog, and if hitting the ground is "moderate length" I'd hate to see how they defined "long."  If I bred a very typey ESS who met the standard, but I crossed in a few generations of the field-type coat (which indeed does have moderate feathering) before breeding back to a dog that met the current show type in every aspect EXCEPT the coat, do  you think I could get that dog put up?  I tend to think I couldn't because the style of coat desired for show, while clearly NOT meeting the standard, is the "popular" coat and a dog that stood out by having moderate feathering and heavy freckling (like a field dog) would probably not get rewarded.

But that is English Springer Spaniels--- big-going flashy show dogs, often handled by professional handlers and a popular dog for specialing and doing the big shows.  For Cardis, who are often owner-exhibited by small kennels and who exhibit a wide range of types among finished dogs, I would tend to think it would not be that big a deal.  

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Permalink Reply by Katy on January 20, 2012 at 8:58pm

Just a personal opinion, I'd rather stay with a standard dog that can perform the functions its breed was bred to do, as opposed to fashion. In the two that we have now, I've learned a lot about the breed and learned even more since joining the site (thank you Sam!).
Probably like others stated, its in a persons personal opinion on what they find tasteful in that breed.

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Permalink Reply by Melvin Brock on January 20, 2012 at 8:58pm

The show ring can be very cut-throat to say the least. I've showed in several differnt breeds. My dogs were never given much a chance and breeders never let any dog out ofthere sight. If they might one day have to compete with their dog. I now raise pups as my children not for the ring.

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Permalink Reply by Rachael & Waffle on January 20, 2012 at 9:20pm

I've talked with my breeder about this type of thing, and it's true, judges pick what they are familiar with seeing or what is the "flavor of the month" (to use my breeder's words) because it is popular and is not necessarily the standard!  In my opinion, this is not only wrong, but it can be harmful to the breed and the opinion of dog shows and pure bred dogs if its allowed to carry on long enough!  When an excellent dog according to the standard loses to a dog that is too low or too long--or that pretty Corgi face with a bad body wins against that perfect body with an average face, it hurts me right here (points to heart) and really lowers my opinion of showing as a non-shower.  Edit:  Of course, the standard has to be "correct"--if a style of breed was popular because it created a healthier type dog and went against the standard, I think that's okay.  I generally think that the Corgi standard is quite good and describes a biomechanically excellent dog given the Corgi's, uh, shortcomings.  Other standards,like the bulldog standard, are perhaps not the best to follow.

I can't speak to the breeding thing, but it makes no sense to me, as a generally uneducated-about-breeding genetics/politics rabble member, that you wouldn't want to breed to a dog that is in no way related to your own.  It seems that outbreeding would make the line more robust and genetically diverse, without actually creating much detrimental variation in the appearance of the dog.  ... Of course, when I say "detrimental", I mean it as affecting the win according to the standard!  

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Permalink Reply by Vicki, Grace and Gizmo on January 20, 2012 at 11:45pm

Showing dogs can be political. Most judges put up the type they like best or a trend.  That is why many handlers and show folks only show to certain judges.  Been there done that.  Had fun, made some long time friends. A standard is a good guide and one to keep in mind so that a breed stays the way we like them.  Now I enjoy my animals for just themselves.  A little obedience and family fun. Besides going here and there moving crates, grooming tables and driving for hours for that opinion is very hard work.  I'm enjoying grand kids and an easier life now. Oh, and saving money. Just my opinion on a subject I spent time in.

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