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Comment by Holly on March 8, 2015 at 10:33pm

I agree that you are doing a great job trying to understand your little dog. I always found the pinning down theory hard to fathom but I am sure it works in some ways, but it is a double-edged sword I think. Just as children behave better with the most aversive, even abusive response, a dog will stop doing some things to avoid something they really hate or fear, but it is much more affective and easier on the dog AND the owner, to reward good behaviors than punish negative ones. The behavior you describe, snapping when touched may have a variety of reasons, but my fear is that Tilly will stop snapping at you, but be aggressive with any number of others unless you are with her and she is restrained. It does sound like she is a great dog and she is probably eager to please. Since you are willing to learn about her and be patient with her I am sure she will keep improving. My dog had some fear aggression when I first adopted her and she snapped when touched on her back as well. I just turned my back on her silently when that happened, then touched her regularly and gently throughout the day while saying "good," and gave her an immediate treat anytime she allowed me to touch her without reacting.

I actually touched her very gently with my cane at first, then graduated to my hand. Now I can remove food from her mouth if necessary and touch her anywhere, anytime, but that is because we gently built respect and trust. If I handled her roughly she would behave better, but I need her to trust me and listen to me. I am sure Tilly will turn around just as quickly. I am no genius or dog whisperer. I did get some great advice from people here, such as Anna, and mostly I just learned to read my dog better and she learned to understand me as her protector and the head of household. The easiest way for me to help her learn is to make her do something every time I feed her, when she is most motivated. If ask her to sit and she doesn't I just quietly remove her bowl. If I put it down and ask her to "sit" to "leave it" or "wait" and she doesn't I just remove it quietly and try again in a few minutes. She learned very quickly and got her food and lots of praise when she complied. She loves to learn new tricks now and she looks to me for reassurance and approval so I very rarely have to correct her. I'm sure you will also have fun bonding with Tilly. Corgis are independent, but eager to please.

Comment by Anna Morelli on March 6, 2015 at 11:10pm

Karen, please know that in no way are my comments intended as criticism of you.  You did the right thing by taking the dog to the Vet and seeking suggestions form people with more experience than yourself.  When the tactics you employed worked, your desire was to share them and help others, this is indeed what we have in common on this site, the desire to help both the dogs and the people.  This is also why we are advising against the technique. 

When I was in school and taking Math tests, sometimes it happened that I made two mistakes in my calculations and was lucky enough that they compensated each other, allowing me to end up with the correct answer!  I was always sorely disappointed when my teacher refused me the passing grade on the test....   Your results are satisfying, but still not advisable. 

Most certainly one cannot  allow growling, snapping or any other out of control behavior and I am not personally in favor of the overuse of treats either.  However, the pinning down technique, which was once the rage among trainers, has long been abandoned by most, although there are still some trainers that advocate harsh treatment.

We use to take kids behind the woodshed and give them a good whipping to teach them manners, that worked, but today we have better ways.  That does not mean we can't get good results.

Comment by Bev Levy on March 6, 2015 at 9:01pm

Check out utube videos of Kikopup and Zak George. They discuss the dominance theory in their training videos and offer less invasive methods to deal with unwanted behaviors. There is a lot of scientific evidence supporting more reward based training. Most of us, myself included, learned to train using dominance methods but changed due to better information. You run the risk of getting into a battle with your dog that will end badly. Just check it out.

Comment by Karen Knuff on March 6, 2015 at 5:10pm

Anna, the vet suggested that he might be wrong, but that I should try the behaviour approach first.  Since my husband and I have started to let Tilly know that the growling and snapping is not acceptable, she has stopped that particular behaviour, so that I know it is not a physical problem.  I can touch her anywhere, any time and she doesn't react like she used to.  

I know we all have our opinions about what works and what doesn't work and what we should and shouldn't do.  But I was at my serious wits end with Tilly and I did consult a dog trainer, who told me to keep doing what I was doing.  I was telling her to "watch me" and giving her treats just as the car passed by.  But it wasn't making a difference at all.  But when I tried the pin down, I had a changed dog. Every corgi is different, just like you don't treat every child the same, because they are all different too, not to mention family dynamics. One takes a risk when one posts on a site such as this.  I appreciate all the comments and information, but I have to go with what works for Tilly. She is a much calmer and happier dog, much the same as setting boundaries for our children.  Tilly is not an aggressive dog and in fact is quite submissive most of the time.  Tilly is a wonderful dog!  

Comment by Beth on March 6, 2015 at 3:12pm

To expand on Anna's point about leadership: My Jack is what might be called a dominant dog, in that he has high status with other animals, both in and out of the house. Jack has never been in a fight. He has corrected other dogs a tiny handful of times in his life, by making some noise and flashing teeth and moving towards them but has never once been in a fight. Here is how he shows he is a leader:

He warmly greets other dogs/people/cats that he knows. He acts very much like he is so happy to see them.
He ignores the other animals when he has something he wants to do that doesn't involve them.
He does not provide attention to other animals on demand; he will disregard requests to play unless HE wants to play.
He takes what he wants, when he wants. If he wants a toy, he gets the toy. If he does not want the toy, the other animals are free to play with the toy.
If he wants the sofa, he gets the sofa. He hates being crowded though and generally he will grumble and move if another animal crowds him. However, if they are very rude he might give them a verbal correction.
He enforces house rules with the other animals in the house. He will break up scuffles between Maddie (our other Corgi) and the cat. He will bark to alert us if another pet is where they should not to be, for instance.
He appropriately corrects over-exuberant puppies who are ignoring doggie social rules. He does it in such a way that they apologize (by lowering slightly and licking the corners of his mouth) and then try to solicit his attention in a nicer way. He always gives them attention briefly when they do this, then goes back to doing whatever it was he was doing.

The other dogs/pets acknowledge his leadership by not arguing when he decides a toy is his, by soliciting his attention when they meet him, by recognizing he has good ideas such as sniffing where he sniffed, rolling where he rolled, picking up sticks if he is picking up sticks, etc.

That's how a dominant dog behaves and we can mimic that by ignoring pushy dogs, acknowledging dogs' efforts to be solicitous to us when they defer to our status, doing interesting things that our dogs want to participate in, greeting our dogs joyfully, and being the bringer of good things like toys and foods and walks only when our dogs are polite.

Comment by Anna Morelli on March 6, 2015 at 1:40pm

The word dominance is one of the most misunderstood among dog  owners and it is often used to explain aggression, which is a mistake. Dominance really means "has leadership qualities".  The ones with leadership qualities would rise within the pack, are usually smart and not prone to fighting, simply because they are rarely challenged, know their place and  know how to assert themselves by their sheer presence.  You see this in wild wolf packs.  In dogs, animals that are dominant can  become dominant aggressive if not properly raised and trained, or if they have genetically bad temperament.  A submissive dog ( one who is a natural follower, rather than a natural leader ) can also  be aggressive.  These are the fear biters, often unpredictable.  Same causes as the dominant aggressive dogs, either improperly raised and trained, or genetically of poor temperament.

The methods advised in this post may work in the short term, but can backfire bigtime with anyone who the dog perceives as weaker ( usually an unsuspecting stranger or a child ) and often the owner will end up bitten at some point as well.  Crude and abusive methods do work in the short term, as Beth pointed out in her example, but there are better ways of handling smart dogs, just as you have your work cut out when you have a smart kid....

If instead you have a dog who is temperamentally aggressive because of poor temperament ( an inherited trait ) then that's a whole other kettle of fish and not the subject of this post.  That would require the help of a competent professional.

Your last sentence is spot on.  If dominance is all you are dealing with,  you've made some progress, now you can look into better avenues that can stabilize the relationship, elicit understanding and cooperation and elicit respect as compared to fear.

As far as the dog growling and biting when originally touched on the back, I would not rule out that the dog was in some kind of pain, or fear because of past pain.  I know you consulted the Vet, but the behavioral explanation the Vet gave you does not suffice in explaining the dog's reaction and your pinning her to the ground can actually aggravate or cause physical harm, although  the dog is learning not to react.  Best wishes.

 

Comment by Jane Christensen on March 6, 2015 at 12:18pm

I agree with Beth!!!!!!!

Comment by Beth on March 6, 2015 at 12:13pm

I would suggest reading some Patricia McConnell or some Karen Pryor. Dominance theory is very controversial. Let me put it this way: if you didn't listen to your boss, and your boss pinned you to the ground multiple times throughout the day and held you down until you submitted, how would you feel about work? Would it have fixed your underlying reasons for not originally complying? At what point would you respond with violence of your own?

Counter-conditioning can get the same results with more kindness. Corgis are bred to herd cows. Big cows. Cows that argue and toss their horns and fight back. They need to be stubborn. One should be prepared to deal with that, not by pinning the dog to the ground but by using rewards and their withholding to teach the dog what we want it to do and what we don't.

I have spent many many hours watching dogs play and interact. Most dogs don't throw each other to the ground. Corrections, when given dog-to-dog, are often noisy but rarely physical. When they are, they are lightning fast and the dogs quickly give appeasement signals to resolve the dispute. The instant the appeasement signals are given, the correcting dog backs off the pressure. If this dance is not performed carefully, it leads to a fight. AND the few dogs that overreact to every slight and throw their weight around tend to be fearfully avoided by most of the other dogs.

About the cars, you say " I knew that she was nervous". Why punish a dog for being afraid? You can help her associate cars with something pleasant so that she is no longer afraid. If a child was afraid to sleep in a dark room, would you wrestle them to the bed 7 times til they cowered alone in their dark room, afraid to show you their fear so they wouldn't get pinned?

I know you are following the advice given by others, but there are lots of would-be trainers out there who truly have little understanding of what they are doing. Please think about the approach and explore some other options.