Surprising Email Offer (not specifically Corgi related)
As many of you know, I have decided to get into the world of dog showing, specifically with Australian Shepherds. After much searching and a few discouraging conversations I feel upon a breeder that I just absolutely loved. We talked about a puppy she had shortly after we connected, but it was just too short notice for me to come up with the kind of money a show prospect costs. I decided to wait for her next litter not knowing how long that might take, but knowing that gave me lots of time to save money.
This morning I woke up to an email from her saying that she has to find a home for one of the puppies (she kept all 3 show prospects from that litter to grow them out and decide what she wanted to do with them) since her father was very ill and keeping all 3 was just too much for her and not fair to the pups. And then she asks if I would like this little boy at NO COST on a co-ownernship and a promise to title him in conformation and performance events! WOW!
My first inclination is to jump, but I'm trying to keep my head here and think through this logically. I have a few questions, but my head just keeps thinking, my show dog for free! Lol. He is four months old, and I don't have a recent stacked picture of him, but here's his puppy stacked picture (I think he's 6 weeks here). The breeder also said that he while his head is a little slighter than she prefers, his bone structure is nice and he has great movement that should make him pretty easy to get his CH. I would love opinions and/or questions I need to remember to ask when I talk to her! Thank MyCorgi friends! (I'm also including a picture where he is kind of self-stacked, I think he is 8-10 weeksish there)
This morning I woke up to an email from her saying that she has to find a home for one of the puppies (she kept all 3 show prospects from that litter to grow them out and decide what she wanted to do with them) since her father was very ill and keeping all 3 was just too much for her and not fair to the pups. And then she asks if I would like this little boy at NO COST on a co-ownernship and a promise to title him in conformation and performance events! WOW!
My first inclination is to jump, but I'm trying to keep my head here and think through this logically. I have a few questions, but my head just keeps thinking, my show dog for free! Lol. He is four months old, and I don't have a recent stacked picture of him, but here's his puppy stacked picture (I think he's 6 weeks here). The breeder also said that he while his head is a little slighter than she prefers, his bone structure is nice and he has great movement that should make him pretty easy to get his CH. I would love opinions and/or questions I need to remember to ask when I talk to her! Thank MyCorgi friends! (I'm also including a picture where he is kind of self-stacked, I think he is 8-10 weeksish there)
Comment
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Comment by Sky and Lyla on January 18, 2010 at 2:21pm
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Thanks to everyone, I have a nice long list of questions to ask the breeder when I speak to her next! I also asked her for a more recent stacked picture and a video of him gaiting so I can get a better feel of what his conformation is now (he's almost 4 months), and I'll ask my obedience instructor (who shows Border Collies) to look it over and give her opinion. Thanks again.. I don't know what I'd do without all my dog friends on here!
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Comment by Beth on January 18, 2010 at 12:46pm
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Oh, and another thought: if at a future date he needs to be placed in a pet home, do you get a say? What if the two of you don't agree on placement? I've heard of this issue arising and someone ending up with a retired dog they had hoped to place because the co-owner did not agree on placement.
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Since it's a male, I would be asking kow many bitches you would be expected to breed him to, whether she will be finding matches or if you have some say, who would be responsible for collecting and shipping semen if that comes up, if you would be expected to evaluate bitches, ship the dog for breeding or manage live covers at your own place, etc. Joannes question about what if he takes ages to finish are also good. Maddie finished in eight shows but that was with a known kennel/handler and other dogs take ages to finish. Plus Maddie was kept home til she was two as apparently she was an awkward teen/young adult, so what is her expectation if this pup is a late-bloomer?
If all is answered to your satisfaction, it sounds like a good offer.
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Comment by Joanna Kimball on January 18, 2010 at 12:13pm
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Make sure your co-own spells out exactly what is required. "Promise to finish" can ruin you if she expects that he be shown (and if you aren't succeeding, by a professional handler) until he is finished. If he doesn't turn out as nice, that could mean a hundred shows (at $75 each handler fee; $33 each entry fee; and a share of the handler's travel expenses and hotel). Even really nice dogs in competitive breeds often take 40 or 50 shows to finish. If possible, have the co-own spell out how much you are expected to spend (and keep receipts!) before you start to share handler fees, and how much further that goes before somebody gives up and neuters him :).
You also need to know what happens in terms of breeding. Are you expected to have him evaluated and collected? Who pays for health testing, and what does it consist of? If he fails, does she expect you to resubmit until he passes? What if he fails a relatively minor one (like he's got a CERF code for eyelids or PPM) is he still breeding quality? What happens if you disagree on this? How will breeding be done - do bitches come to your house? Do you have to send him there? How often could you be expected to do it if he turns out really nicely? Who ends up with the stud fee? If it's a bitch she owns or has bred, is the stud fee waived? And so on and so on.
Some co-ownerships are fantastic. Some are absolute nightmares. In my experience the ones that have the longest and most comprehensive contracts are the ones that go best. But do NOT look at this as a way to save money. You'll spend what would have been his purchase price on a single show cluster! Getting a super puppy is actually cheaper than trying to finish an OK one.
I don't know Aussies well enough to evaluate puppies. I'd have to have my hands on him anyway because the hair disguises the structures. He looks like he *might* have a short upper arm or forward-set front (see how his front legs are under his neck instead of under the front part of his body?), but it's all a ball of fluff and under it he might be perfect in front and shoulder. It also could be that the picture was taken at six weeks instead of eight, and that throws everything off.
I honestly don't have the "right" answer for you. What you're describing is not a red flag; good breeders do have these types of arrangements. I just don't want you to have a horror story at the end of it, and usually those are best avoided by being VERY straight with each other.
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Bev, it's true! I talked to at least a dozen show breeders and all but just one or two said "I never used to do this, but X,Y,Z happened, and now I only offer my show prospects on a co-ownership." It's sad that there are unethical people out there that have to make it tough for everyone. As for the titles, that was something that I wanted to do anyway, so it doesn't bother me. In fact, she even said that if I had trouble getting his CH, since it is sometimes hard for a first-time handler to finish a dog due to handler errors, that she would help out so he could finish. Thanks for your thoughts!
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Comment by Bev Levy on January 18, 2010 at 11:36am
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My understanding is that more breeders are doing this type of arrangement. Jane's questions are good and you have to ask yourself if you really have the time to commit to this too. Good luck, he is really cute!
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Comment by Jane Christensen on January 18, 2010 at 11:30am
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I understand that she will probably want to produce litters with him...I personally just wouldn't want to have my own dogs gone for long periods of time...which I doubt but better to ask than not! Good Luck...he is VERY handsome!
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Yes, she offers her show dogs on a co-ownership only, even if you are "paying" for them. I know what her normal contract for co-ownership looks like as we talked about it at length a few months ago, so I would certainly ask her if this set of circumstances meant there would be any changes, i.e. puppy back out of litters, etc. Right now the only requirement I know if is I would be required to put titles on him, and the benefit of the co-ownership for her is that her name stays on him so she gets credit for some of that work. I like your #1 question though and will certainly remember to ask it! Thanks Jane!
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I don't know anything about co-owning but my question would be 1) does he get to live with you always? 2) would she ever want to sell and you want a forever dog? 3) What would the contract for co-owner say? I would find out more but this sounds great as long as you get specifics spelt out so you know!
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