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Permalink Reply by Beth on November 21, 2011 at 3:09pm

I did want to clarify that Jack's litter had clearly been handled, played with, exposed to lots of people, etc.  It's just that the hand-reared litter was SO docile in comparison that it seemed to me that it was the handling, not the time with the litter, that taught bite inhibition.  

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Permalink Reply by Jane on November 21, 2011 at 8:59am

8-10 weeks is ideal in my opinion, but 8 weeks seems to be the standard for cardigans. For cardis the code of ethics only requires the breeder to keep them for 7 weeks, for pems it's 10 weeks I believe. I got Luke a few days shy of 8 weeks actually (I would have had to wait another 2-3 weeks otherwise due to scheduling, and I admit I had serious puppy fever) and he was an incredibly easy puppy. He rarely used his teeth, potty trained quickly, and seemed right at home almost immediately. Henry I got at 10 weeks and he was a shark lol, he also seemed a lot more stressed by leaving the breeder's house.

 

I personally wouldn't want a breeder to keep my puppy for 12 weeks because I want to make sure he/she is getting a lot of individual socialization. Most breeders do not have the time to take each puppy on lengthy outings by themselves, especially if they have a large litter.

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Permalink Reply by Rebecca Marie O'Bryan on November 21, 2011 at 12:59pm

this is all very interesting and Beth u have some great points that people do not think of.

when i got teddy he was 7 weeks. the people i got him from handled them all and sometimes bottled feed them to give relief to the first time mom. i must say that i believe in them doing that, it has affected his temperament with people as he has always been so trusting and loving to other people but that being said even though he was socialized he didnt exactly know his boundaries with other dogs and didnt really know how to politely say  hello or play nice. there were times it seemed as though he didnt know what other dogs body language meant. he has learned that over time but at first it was like he was clueless.

 

so now i am wondering, should i have waited until he was 8 or 9weeks for him to learn these things?

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Permalink Reply by Michelle on November 21, 2011 at 1:03pm

When AJ had her puppies (we had a breed agreement with our breeders) the youngest any of them were placed was 8 weeks and honestly she was a real fireball and was ready for placement.  Sometimes I think intent, agility showing etc, can play into it.  We (myself husband and breeder) opted to hold the boys of the liter a few more weeks we wanted them to develop a little more  When a breeders holds onto puppies it also allow for some earlier training to begin.....ie potty training.  We got a real head start on that and they responded well.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Anna Morelli on November 21, 2011 at 2:22pm

Sandy, by no later than 12 weeks the pups have to be individually exposed to all kinds of things and different environments and people outside the home in an appropriate way.  That is why 16 wks is outside of the range we've been calling ideal.  Of course the breeder could do this but, unless it's been done, your case is an excellent illustration of the repercussions on the pup.  You can train a dog at any age.  Socialization, unlike training,  is a window that closes.

Many older pups who are well adjusted have been bought from breeders.  Many breeders will hold on to a show prospect longer, expose it to puppy or conformation classes, travel, fun matches, house time, friends and family etc.  If a pup like this does not pan out for the show ring, it usually will work out great when placed in a pet home.

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Permalink Reply by Sandy Stickney on November 21, 2011 at 1:15pm

I am not experienced as others who have posted, but my personal experience was this:  we got Kirby at 8 weeks and we got his sister Kota at about 16 weeks.  They are both friendly towards people and dogs, but Kota is very timid and very weary of anything new--i.e hat on someome she hasn't seen wearing a hat before (she flipped out when she saw me in my floppy pool hat!); backpacks, any new yard decorations that neighbors may add to their yards, etc.  I know 16 weeks is outside of the range everyone has discussed here, but thought I'd share.

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Permalink Reply by Melissa and Franklin! on November 21, 2011 at 1:32pm

Franklin was 9 weeks when I got him. He was the perfect puppy, loved people and loved other dogs. My breeder started crate training basically since birth. Not in the conventional sense, but a crate was placed in their play area since the time they opened their eyes, and once weaned at 5 weeks old each pup had its individual crate that it spent time in. As it got older it spent more time in its crate and by the time they were 9 weeks old they were fully crate trained and reliably potty trained. Franklin had ZERO issue being away from his litter when I brought him home, in fact when I picked him up at the airport he acted like he knew me his whole life and had lived with me forever. No whining, no timidness, no typical puppy behavior. He was never a biter, didn't chew a whole lot, and was potty trained at any house that had a yard (I lived in a 3rd story apartment in downtown San Francisco, so we had some issues with potty training at my apartment). He was so well adjusted that he was loaded onto a plane and had a 3 hour flight to me and didn't potty in his crate the whole flight, waited until I took him out when I picked him up at the airport, and was peppy and actually went with me to the vet I worked at and met everyone that same day and also met several new dogs. He acted like didn't just go through one of the most traumatic experiences of his life, and in all honestly I don't believe the flight was even that big of a deal to him, the way he behaved after, he acted as if he just slept through the whole thing and was well rested and ready to go when I got him.

On the other hand, in January I took a 16 week old pup on trial. The owner/breeder said she was well socialized, started potty training and crate training. She was in fact terrified of all new situations, she screamed any time Franklin tried to play with her, peed all over the house, and whined all night the few nights I had her. I think it has everything to do with the fact that she was raised with her litter and stayed with her parents and original pack for so long, The owner worked at a vet and she went to work with her frequently so I know that while she had several new experiences, she was so adjusted to their routine that she was terrified when taken out of that routine. I couldn't even get her to walk on a leash outside and go potty. She was too scared to be outside and ended up just going all over in her crate.

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Permalink Reply by Rebecca Marie O'Bryan on November 21, 2011 at 2:22pm

Franklin sounds just like teddy and my breeder did the same thing with the crates. she had several in "their" area and he was crate trained when we got him. never made a peep.

 

and thats a great point u just made about the pup. i would have thought being with her little mates longer would have helped more than harmed

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Permalink Reply by Beth on November 21, 2011 at 3:06pm

Jack was not crate trained but the co-breeder had some outside runs and when we went to meet the litter, the pups were all together but when we went to pick up Jack, they were broken into smaller groups in the runs.  Obviously they were not out there all the time (they clearly had learned as a group to come when called, for instance, and I know they were still in the house sleeping and in the yard playing).  But the fact that they had also apparently learned to spend time without the whole litter made the transition easier.  He slept through the night the first night and only cried for about 10 minutes when we put him away at night.  And he'd been in an ex-pen, so he never cried in the ex-pen unless he was already cranky when we put him away.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on November 21, 2011 at 3:07pm

I wanted to add, too, that when breeders are left with some unplaced pups, some of them will send pups out to temporary "socialization homes" to avoid just what you are describing.  Pups left with their litter become overly bonded to the littermates and can be very tough.  It's the same reason no one recommends adopting two from the same litter.

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Permalink Reply by Chris West on November 21, 2011 at 3:43pm

Thanks for all the great responses everyone! You definitely brought up some issues that I had not previously considered. Just to clarify my earlier statement, the breeder I am working with had told me they like to keep their pups until 12 weeks because they like to start them on ring training, crate training, leash training, basic obedience, etc before they send them home with their new owners. I always take at least the first week off work to spend 24/7 one-on-one time with my animals when I bring them home. I have done this with all my dogs and cats and feel that this goes a long way towards building a lasting bond with my pets. I have had puppies from other breeds in the past that I always brought home at 8 weeks. Frosty was a year old when we brought him home and he had some serious bite inhibition issues, but he was also a singleton. That was one of my main reasons for wanting to bring the pup home later, I had heard that they have better bite inhibition if left with the others longer. I just really appreciate everyone taking the time to comment on here for me. Thanks again!!!

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