Dog-to-Dog Greetings
I'm hoping for some feedback here.
Most of the "dog body language" resources I have seen indicate that when dogs greet other dogs, the more submissive dog will be the one to lay his ears back against his head.
Well, Jack has always greeted other dogs with his ears plastered flat back against his head, back end waggy and loose, generally back end lower than the front end.
The thing is, he's one of the most dominant dogs in the large group of dogs we know. He adores other dogs. He likes to hang out with them, wants to say "hi" to every dog he sees (except the ones giving clear "back off" signals-- he is good at reading other dogs), and loves to make new friends. He only half-heartedly plays with most dogs any more (When he was under three he wanted to play all the time. Now, not so much). But he genuinely enjoys their company. And he is pretty much boss-dog of the group. There are maybe two dogs he shows submission to; one is a German Shepherd that probably weighs over 100 pounds, the other is a similarly huge Lab, and both of them are male. Otherwise, most other dogs show subordination to him.
Here's a typical example: he spies a female lab we know. He runs up to her, ears back against his head, eyes shining. She flips over, shows her belly, he sniffs her, they get up and bounce for a minute and then he wanders away to sniff and roam.
Or, he greets a young Aussie with ears back, they wander their separate ways, the Aussie starts running around and barrels into Jack. Jack corrects him, loudly but with no contact. The Aussie comes up, crouches low, licks the corners of Jack's mouth. Jack deigns to sniff him and play-bow to say all is well, and then they wander their separate ways.
If a ball or frisbee is thrown in a group and Jack wants it, Jack gets it.
So in every other way, he seems to be one of the more dominant dogs. Yet--- all greetings are done with ears well back.
Anyone else notice this? Maybe the dog body language stuff online is over-simplified? I think Jack just enjoys meeting other dogs so he goes in with body language that says "I come in peace" or something like that. Maddie, who IS submissive, usually runs right up to other dogs with her ears forward. It all seems backwards from what I've heard.
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Melissa and Franklin! on
-
I think that yes, the body language is over simplified. Franklin greets all his buddies (human or dog) with full body wag and ears back. He is generally incredibly submissive but he doesn't flop on his back and display submissive behaviors until the other dog starts displaying dominant and/or aggressive behaviors. All greetings are done as if he were already best buddies with the dog and then the go from there. I think its only when they are displaying dominance that they will posture with ears forward and tail erect. With Jack (as with Franklin) I think most greetings are more of a "hey lets be friends" and I bet if the other dog started posturing Jack would no longer have the ears back and body wag, but would rather stand taller, ears forward or slightly back, and nubbin high. If you watch dogs interact, its not only their ears that display submission, the submissive dog will generally form a "C" shape with its body, won't make eye contact, will lick the mouth of the dominant dog, etc. A dog with floppy ears can't really pin their ears back in submission as effectively has a corgi or shepherd can so I think it is more BODY language (as in combination of various features) that signifies happy vs dominant display vs aggressive, and not so much just one feature or another.
-
Permalink Reply by Beth on
-
Jack also greets his human friends with ears back, and tries to lick faces. Then he sits on their feet--- hardly a show of submission. He never greets us with ears back (submissive Maddie does). He does greet us with the full-body stretch, which I find charming.
Jack is one of those dominant dogs who does not give a hoot about status. I think that like the cool kid in school, he's the boss because he really doesn't care. He's never been in a fight. He will correct other dogs, but if another dog is aggressive to him he leaves. The two dogs he is subordinate to, he shows subordination by backing off if they both want the same thing, but not by showing active submission.
He definitely does what you say Franklin does; he greets most as if they were already bestest friends. I've seen him go right into playing with other dogs without any preliminary greetings (usually if the other dog is young and bouncy).
When we brought Maddie home, Maddie kept trying to mount him (I think in retrospect it was stress-induced affiliative mounting). He corrected her by standing with both paws over her shoulder, from the side. I've also seen him flip over big dogs (usually labs) who were just too rough in play.
I have heard that what we think of as dominance behavior in dogs (overt displays of dominance) are actually insecurity from middle-ranking dogs who are not comfortable with their spot, and truly dominant dogs rarely show their dominance because they don't need to. I tend to think that is what it is with Jack. He shows appeasement behaviors in greetings because it makes everyone comfortable, and because he's happy to see them, and because he's confident enough in his relative position to not need to posture. Sort of like when the CEO comes to see the regular worker-bees and smiles and shakes hands and asks deferential questions.
-
Permalink Reply by John Wolff on
-
Gwynnie very often has her ears down. I only saw Siri with her ears down once in her whole life, when she was in pain.
Al almost never has his ears down.
I really wish I could read Al's body language better, and I wish he had a tail to signal with, and I wish he knew how to saw "Back off!" gracefully, because he will snap at another dog without warning (not even a growl) and without any provocation at all, and he'll press the attack. I do not understand this behavior at all. It's like a switch is thrown, and he turns into a different person. I think it may be fear-based. This looks quite vicious, but he's never done any damage, so I guess he doesn't intend to. He may signal this with a curled lip, but I'm often out-of-position to see that.
The last time, both dogs were off-leash on a hike at a rest stop. I saw it clearly: he just calmly walked up to Zeke and attacked him! Zeke is a totally beta Springer spaniel, not aggressive at all, and Zeke was just sitting there! Zeke was one of the first dogs Al met as a puppy, and Zeke tried to hump him in the yard, and Al may remember this, or it may be irrelevant. But Zeke is totally harmless. So I wondered: is there an element of bullying here? Bullies are insecure, and pick on weaklings. Al never picks on a dog that could really whup him -- he has snapped at much bigger dogs, but they've been big puppies or unaggressive dogs.
He recently snapped at a 6-mo. husky puppy, Al's size, but Al should've granted "puppy license", I thought. Luckily, I was watching for this. I always have to keep him leashed around other dogs.
I do not understand this behavior, so I can't correct it. One commonality: it's always when I'm distracted with something else and not paying close attention to Al. I have to keep him short and not allow him an opportunity to fail, and learn to watch his body language more closely. It's my only complaint. I think I somehow failed to socialize him properly -- but as I recall, this only started in his 2nd year, when he was a young adult.
-
-
Truck does the EXACT same thing Al does it sounds like. He will lunge at other dogs with barely any warning (and he has a tail!). He mostly does it to just big dogs, and I have no idea what his socialization history has been since I've only had him a couple weeks. What I do notice is the only thing that happens right before he lunges is he gets the crazy eye. Generally he won't even growl or lift his lip or anything, just crazy eye then snap, so I really have to watch him closely around other dogs. With Truck I know for sure this is a fear response, and perhaps Al had something scary happen to him by a strange dog when he was around 2? It may have been something as simply as a large dog running up and invading his space too abruptly.
-
-
When you say "snap at", does he actually make contact? Or just snap the air?
-
-
Al will sometimes press the attack and actually grab the other dog's ruff. He's never drawn blood, but I don't know for sure how secure the bite inhibition is. He's done this with much bigger dogs, but more submissive dogs I think, once with a very big (60+ lb.?) 6-9 mo. puppy, a very friendly playful young dog.
Sometimes boisterous play including a ball is involved, but often there is nothing going on and no conceivable provocation. He may be a bit of a bully: i.e., so far I don't think he's ever picked on a more dominant dog. Bullies, being insecure, pick on weaklings.
Sometimes he just snarls and snaps.
-
Permalink Reply by Alison Prasavath on
-
Noodles does this as well, but it is only to dogs who are overly boisterious (or that is how I put it). When big dogs approach him from the back, he doesn't like that and will quickly spin around mouth open and a bark. He also doesn't like it when other dogs run up to him and pounce in to him to try and get him to play. He prefers humans to other dogs, but if the dog is mild mannered, he will be just fine (he likes it when other dogs are on their leash). His ears go back and his nub will go. He isn't a fan of smaller dogs because he has been bitten twice by small dogs. I will say one time when my brother and sister-in-law's little dog was approaching Noodles to take a treat from him, Noodles accidently caught Dexter in the eye. I freaked out and to this day, we haven't allowed Noodles to play with Dexter (Dex is fine by the way). My brother and sister-in-law said it wasn't Noodles fault, but he knows better than to behave like that. We (and other humans including kids) practice all the time with food and treats so he won't be food aggressive, but something happened that day. It was very disturbing and disappointing seeing Noodles do that. I wasn't worried about the way he would react around other dogs, but now some times I do get a bit nervous and we go the other direction. I feel like I failed as a parent since he doesn't like playing with other dogs.
-
Permalink Reply by Di, Pazu, and Mochi the Bunny on
-
Ya Pazu does this too with big dogs. At an offleash dog park, Pazu got charged by a big dog and started limping so I ended up carrying him out of the dog park.
When dogs are far away, Pazu typically walks with a trot, chest puffed out, ears up, forward, and alert, and nub up.
If dogs approach the butt area only, Pazu allows them to sniff for like 2 seconds. If they linger, he puts 1.5 inch nub down and his ears draw back. If they linger for two more seconds, Pazu will begin to turn with the whale eyed look as if asking them to back off and begin a slight growl. Any longer, and he will turn and snap at the air.
But I think sniffing is like handshaking for people. It's like an art. Because I think "where" you sniff and "how far" and "how long" you sniff actually matters to dogs. Did I hold your hand too tight, too long - does my hand fit well in your hand for a shake?
If dogs approach from the side sometimes or to smell him from over his back, Pazu's nub immediately goes down and he is quick to spin around mouth open with a bark. And he might even chase them a bit to get them to back off.
Every once in a while, a big dog comes and has a very polite sniff (whatever that looks like), and Pazu will sniff him back. Those are cool and I still haven't figured out what that dog does differently than the others, but they are usually very calm well behaved older dogs, not puppies or dogs that have been cooped in the house too long.
I find that Pazu is very particular about how other dogs should greet him and how he wants to play with other dogs. If you are smaller or slower than him, he will let you chase him. If you are faster, he only wants to chase you. If you want to wrestle and you are a big dog, you have to lay down often (like my lab/border collie often does for him) and let him jump all over you. He rarely if ever cares to go up to other dogs to sniff so sometimes dogs will approach about a foot away as if asking to sniff, and he seems to reply "no, I don't want to be sniffed" and they back up, pause, and leave.
And Pazu is touchy with bigger puppies too...especially the bigger dog pups who approach Pazu by staring at him. I wonder if "big dog" puppies think... oh, he's smaller - therefore I can push him around. So Pazu has "corrected" / "air snapped" some husky puppies because of this.. and I remember he literally charged one 4 month old and got the husky pup on his back and then Pazu left with his nub high in the air, pleased with himself.
When I come home, Pazu draws his ears back and wiggles his bunny butt and kisses me and his lab/collie Lilo friend on the side of mouth. And then flops over on his back for a belly rub.
Yes I think dog dog language is oversimplified. I think Brenda Aloof's Canine Photographic Guide is extremely helpful and more comprehensive than most.
-
Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
-
I do think dog behavior is way more complicated than most researchers indicate. My thought is that they are not that much different than us in that they adapt different postures just as humans do in each situation based on past experience and personality. Sparty is very dominant and always greets with ears forward. He is also the most reliable with other dogs or puppies.He will back down if another dog is aggressive and play bow with a excited puppy. However, if there is food involved he will be very aggressive to other dogs.Izzy greets with her ears down and butt wagging. However, she can quickly become snippy with a dog that shows too much interest or a very boisterous pup. She will not give up her food bowl to the other animals but waits her turn patiently for treats. Misty is obviously very bothered by other dogs while leashed but off leash just runs around while other dogs chase her. The cats can move her away from her food bowl and they don't even have claws.I think it is important to learn as much as you can about how your dog responds to others and act accordingly. John you are very responsible with Al and that is the best way to protect your dog and others when out in public. I find it so annoying when people allow their dog to just run over to us and then I find out later that they know their dog is unreliable. Crazy!
-
Permalink Reply by Sam Tsang on
-
Hi Beth,
I think Jack plays it very safe, he come in peace, once he determine there's no threat, he proceed to exercise his power. A true politician.
Mocha thinks he is Al Capone, walking around with his head high, ear up, chest puffed out demanding respect. Unfortunate he's not as tall as Al, so most dogs don't take him seriously :)
-
-
I think your explanation makes the most sense. I have already dubbed him "The Mayor" due to the way he fawns over all and sundry, kisses babies, shakes hands, acts like he remembers just who you are even if he's never met you..... He also runs in if he hears a person say "Ouch" or make any other sounds of being in distress (in case they might need his expert assistance), and I've seen him barrel right over if he hears another dog yip--- again, to check things out and make sure all is well. But the first sign of REAL trouble--- a fight--- and he high-tails it out of there. Just like a politician. :)
I've never seen him grovel or show his belly willingly to man nor beast.
Maddie is protective of her personal space. She frequently greets other dogs on her toes, ears forward. Usually laid-back dogs find her amusing but we won't allow her to greet other insecure reactive females or trouble can start--- both dogs misread the situation and it can turn into an argument..
If Maddie tries to correct another dog, unfortunately they all ignore her. :) They know she's just a powder puff underneath it all.
-
Permalink Reply by Anna Morelli on
-
Beth, I think you have the right idea when you say " Maybe the dog body language stuff online is over-simplified? "
Body language can and does convey much and can be quite complex, except at the extreme ends of the emotional range.
There are various studies on body language, some are observations of animals in the wild, others of captive wild animals, others of domestic animals, and so on - then someone tries to apply all this to one particular dog and, as they say on the stickers of cars for sale " Your mileage may varie ".
To add to the confusion, most animals are not dominant or submissive, but operate within a range at any particular time, so the same dog may be dominant to dog A and submissive to dog B and neutral with dog C. This too may change and be affected by health changes, age changes, environmental changes etc, in any one of the dogs. You can also see this in dog-people interaction (men, women, children, infants... eliciting different responses from the same dog). I had a dog that was very submissive to people and very dominant to dogs in general.
In reading dog to dog body language, we are doing a fair amount of guesswork, as we are looking at a different species through our own eyes, which certainly has its limitations. We have a better chance of being right when assessing a dog's body language as it relates to a particular human, and trainers consulted about behavior problems do this all the time ( as you know with varying degrees of success...)
Animal's ability to read other animals body language also varies. Some are good at it and other clueless. In the wild, less so because of natural selection, but you often see this in domestic animals.
Your gut feeling about the whole of a situation involving your own dog is probably the most reliable indicator of what is going on, as that gut feeling is feedback from your right brain. Your right brain can take in and analyze a situation, IN THE MOMENT, much more quickly and efficiently than any, apparently more rational, right brain thinking (which I am engaging in now ) :-)
Rescue Store
Stay Connected
FDA Recall
Canadian Food Inspection Agency Recall
Groups
We support...
Badge
© 2024 Created by Sam Tsang.
Powered by
