HELP! Breeder in Spencer, NY
First, sorry for the long post. My fiancé and I fell in love with corgis ever since we saw our first one and
have been looking to adopt/buy an adult corgi for the past several months. We've tried looking at shelters, breeders, rescue groups, and FINALLY just 2 weeks ago, we found a breeder in Spencer NY (Diane Nelson) who has an available adult female. Through various email contacts, we finally set a date and time to meet. However, some "problems" have come up, and we have no idea if we're being too picky, or she's a shady breeder. PLEASE HELP! If you could give your opinion on the situation or about the breeder if you have heard of/know her, that would be great!
The corgi is a 4 yr. old unsprayed female, and the breeder was asking for $350, which I figured was reasonable.
She's been very responsive and helpful in the emails...except she only does emails. She will not give out her phone number, stating the reason that she's busy and email is better for her. Okay, i guess that's reasonable enough.
Everything was going very well until we got to the medical history part....
When I asked for the corgi's medical history, she said that she does her own vaccinations except rabies shots and does not have any medical records. I asked to talk to the vet, and she writes back a not-so-nice email saying that she already said the dog only sees the vet for rabies shot, so there won't be any other record regardless. Okay...
Then I asked if she does genetic screenings on her litters, and especially, the corgi we are going to get, and she said yes but she doesn't buy the certifications and just goes with her vet's word on it. In other words, she does genetic screenings but has nothing to show for it- and she did took the dog to check for hip problems when she was 2. When I asked AGAIN to talk to her vet, she again said there is nothing to see and the vet doesn't disclose that information anyways. (But then again, I said if she takes the dog for hip screenings and even just rabies shots, I still want to talk to the vet.) After asking THREE times for the vet's information, she never gave me a name or number, just reasons why I can't talk to the vet.
Finally, my fiancé and I said that we won't purchase a dog or puppy or anything living for that matter without knowing its medical history or at least talking to a vet about its health. She wrote back a defensive email claiming NONE of her buys ever asked for medical information, and NO ONE has ever asked to talk to the vet. She also says ALL her dogs live to be 12-15 and never has any medical problems.
My fiancé and I figured we're done with her any ways, but for the future (we do plan to get a corgi sooner or later), please let us know if we did something wrong here. Was it wrong of us to ask these information, or are we just dealing with a shady person? Also, we live 4 hours from her, so we don't want to make multiple trips if we don't have to, so that's why I wanted to talk to the vet before we go there. Also, she lists two of her puppies on puppyfinder.com and she does have good reviews on that website. She has her phone number on breeder's sites and puppy finder, but yet she refused to give us her number when I hinted that maybe phone conversations will be easier.
Thank you!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Anna Morelli on
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This person is NOT a good match for you, this is clear. You talk about adopting or buying an adult Corgi. When you adopt, you often know little about the dog's health and it is not uncommon that an adopted dog need some form of medical attention after you get it, especially when you adopt from a Shelter. To many people this is not a problem and many take pleasure in knowing they have helped a dog who really needed it on the way to getting a beloved companion. Even when healthy, adopted dogs often have behavioral issues which need to be worked through, so you need to be open to some degree of uncertainty if adoption is on your list.
If, on the other hand, you wnt to buy a dog, then you should look for someone, whether a breeder or someone who is looking for a new home for their dog in exchange for a reasonable fee, that you feel totally comfortable with. You need to have your questions answered, an opportunity to check out the dog, and whatever else gives you peace of mind.This is not unreasonable, this makes common sense.
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Permalink Reply by Tammy Louie on
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Right, we accept certain degrees of uncertainty when it comes to adoption from a shelter. This breeder, in particular, that I was going to buy the dog from, said she had her from birth, so she should know the dog's full history, including her temperament and medical history.
Is it uncommon to ask for an adult's medical history from the breeder (of course, I understand this is usually not possible when adopting from a shelter)? I assume this dog is either a retired show dog, or that her breeding days are over so the breeder is looking to rehome her.
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No, it i not uncommon and I would definitely ask those kind of questions.
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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You can look up the breeder's kennel name on OFA and see if she registers her certs on her dogs. Just a couple things: First, most breeders do all their own shots and so have limited records. The one we used did paste vaccination info on a personal log they kept for the dog. Our breeder sometimes even took her dogs to rabies clinics for rabies vaccines. They did visit the vet for routine check-ups.
Second, I agree it's unusual to actually ask to talk to the vet. If that's what you want then that would be up to you, but I can see the breeder saying "well, that's a bit unusual."
HOWEVER, when I google "Diane Nelson Corgi" I get no hits in show results, so I'm not sure what area she participates in and she may not be health-testing her dogs if she is not competing.
If you can get her kennel name and make sure of the spelling, you can poke around online and see what you find, then visit OFA and see if her dogs are listed at all.
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Excuse me for being a noobie, but why is it weird to ask to talk to the vet? Most of my research online indicates this is completely normal. I'm not disputing your suggestion, I just don't understand the logic. If she had the medical records, then yes, maybe talking to the vet is a bit much. But in her case, she doesn't have any paperwork to support her claims. As a buyer, are we just supposed to take the breeder's word for it, and place trust in them just because they're breeders?
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I think there are generally privacy issues. Perhaps if the dog had some sort of chronic health condition they might give permission so you could get a handle on it, but normally a vet is not likely to talk to a third person, I don't think.
When we got Maddie, I got a copy of her rabies vaccines and her pedigree, some pictures of her finishing, her microchip info, the handwritten vaccination log the breeder kept, and a handwritten note with the date of her last heat, when she'd whelped, and how many she'd whelped. I asked for info on her health certs but did not ask to see them. It IS reasonable to ask to see them--- recommended, in fact--- but I'd never bothered. And I signed a contract.
With Jack, we got a photocopy of the vet check on the litter, verbal confirmation of health clearances of parents, info on the website that had the stud dog listed, and a hand-written copy of vaccinations (with the stickers from the bottles). And again a contract.
However, I was dealing with a reputable breeder whose kennel name was showing up all over in other people's show and performance dogs,and whom I was referred to by another reputable breeder. So I guess I felt safe figuring if people who know more than I do think she's trustworthy, than so do I. Were I dealing with a breed with lots of serious health issues, I would have been more diligent in checking with my own two eyes.
Bottom line is, though, that as others have said, you should feel comfortable talking to her and she should be asking and answering lots of questions. Trust your gut. The breeder we used just spent so much time talking to us, and so went above and beyond what I expected in terms of feeling us out and telling us about our dogs, that I was more than comfortable.
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Permalink Reply by Melissa and Franklin! on
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I think you made a good decision in not getting a dog from her. Recently I adopted an adult dog from a breeder, and while it didn't work out because the breeder mis-represented (not intentionally) the personality of the dog, they provided full disclosure about medical history. She offered to give me copies of his medical record from the vet when I asked and also wanted to have a phone conversation before we met. And many people will say they have done health testing on their dogs, but without a certificate, this basically means they may have taken the dog in for an exam and the vet manipulated its hips and knees and said they seemed ok, it doesn't mean there were x-rays taken or blood drawn. Good job going with your instincts on this one, she sounds pretty shady to me. While she is right that most vets won't talk to you about somebody else's dog, the owner can easily get a copy of the medical record for you to read yourself or have your current/future vet go over with you. A medical record is something you would need anyway and the fact that she says she has the vet do "health testing" is enough to know there is SOME information that the vet has. I think your gut would tell you when its appropriate to ask for vet records and when you just take the breeder's word. If she was totally open and honest from the beginning then you would probably feel more comfortable about taking their word for it, as Beth said, many breeders won't really have ANY vet records to show you, but the fact that she was so defensive about you asking makes me think perhaps there is something there that she doesn't want you to see? Did she ever tell you why she was re-homing the dog in the first place?
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Permalink Reply by Jane on
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A lot of breeders do all their vaccinations and wormings at home, so not having much for medical records isn't that out of the ordinary, IMO. Asking to speak to the vet is probably a little unusual but not a ridiculous request I think. She should also have some record of the health screenings she's claiming she had done. Hips are almost always evaluated by the OFA, and at the very least she should have a copy of the xray from the vet. If she sent in for DM, it's $65 for the test and they don't charge extra for the results as far as I can see. Was she selling her with a spay contract?
My personal opinion...I wouldn't buy from someone who lists puppies on puppyfind. If you google her kennel name she's selling puppies on multiple sites, which I don't care for. I also don't like the "my dogs all live 12-15 years" line. That just sounds like something a typical BYB would say to get around the fact that they don't actually do health testing.
Have you tried contacting some breeders near you from the pwcca.org website? I'm assuming you want a pem, but there are several cardi breeders out on the east coast as well.
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Thank you everyone so far for all your opinion and suggestions. I've been contacting so many people over the last several months (I can't even keep count), from AKC (where I got this breeder's name from), to PWC clubs of my state to pet finder, etc. It's a really tiring process, and especially because we are looking for a purebred, adult or young adult corgi (sex and pem/cardi doesn't matter to us), it's especially tough I think. I thought I had found "the one" with this breeder, but the way she handled my questions raised a lot of doubts. Her answers are not completely unreasonable, in my opinion (except the fact she claims she doesn't want to pay for the certifications) but she got VERY defensive in her replies and it was a "take it or leave it" attitude. I have checked out her dog's name on OAF website, and I didn't see anything on there. I honestly don't know her kennel name (Again i'm a complete newbie). I find it funny that she wants the peace of mind by making us pay $350 in cash, and not check. Yet, she's unwilling to reciprocate that and expect us to just take her word for everything. It seems a little sketched to me. I mainly only asked to talk to the vet because she basically said "I'll write down all my vaccination dates for you" but has NO certifications to show, NO medical records (at least official ones, not hand-written ones). If she told me that she'll get the record from her vet, i would be more than happy with that.
She never did told me the reason why she's rehoming her dog.
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A good breeder asks a lot of questions and also welcomes them, especially from people new to the breed. They see this as an opportunity to teach newcomers about the breed they love.
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Permalink Reply by Yuki & Ellie on
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If I've found the right person, her kennel name is displayed in a couple places on the 'net as DiNel's. To quote from the Puppyfind site: "At DiNel's our goal is to breed AKC pups that exceed the norm for health, temperament, and adherence to the breed standard."
I also had contacted her during my search for a puppy. I remember only because she's also a bulldog breeder and at the time I thought it was interesting that she bred bulldogs as well as corgis. And if I remember correctly, she mostly shows bulldogs and corgis are more of a hobby or a new area she's branching into. I also had a rather negative experience with her. When I started asking her lots of questions she seemed to become very defensive and gave vague responses. She eventually became irritated (or so it seemed, because it's hard to tell tone through emails) and said I needed to call her for further information as I seemed "shady" from asking so much. Yet when I tried to get a time when it would be best to call, she stopped responding to emails. Phone messages were likewise not returned.
I won't say she's a bad breeder, as I have nothing to base that opinion off of, but I definitely didn't like how she treated me as a potential owner. And since I eventually got my Ellie-girl from a breeder who would answer my questions, I'm not sorry I gave up and looked elsewhere. :)
Are you looking for a Pembroke in particular? If not, there are a few Cardigan breeders that you could contact. There's one out near Albany and another, I think, in Oneida. Just a thought!
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Permalink Reply by Chelsea and Wyatt on
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I agree with many other posters on this issue. I would be curious as to why the dog was being re-homed in the first place, in addition to what her temperament and health history was like.
While it is true that most breeders administer their own vaccinations and dewormers, they usually keep the bag the shots come in (so you can see exactly what strain they used), and keep written records of when said shots were given. This is all in addition to a contract, pedigree papers, and the genetic testing results. Our breeder actually made a lovely little binder for Wyatt with pictures of him, vaccination logs + the bags they came in, his AKC/UKC registration forms, contract, and his DM test results.
This breeder's lack of information and defensiveness are what alarms me most. I would've felt uncomfortable as well; I think you made the right choice avoiding doing any business from her.
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