Good article on why Cesar's methods should be banned from tv
Here's a good article based in science about why the idea of dominating your dog Ii.e. Cesar Millan's training method) is not a good idea.
http://ladycyon.tumblr.com/post/2155151198/the-deception-of-the-dog...
Its pretty long and does contain a lot of Cesar Millan bashing, but mixed in is some good information. I think the most important point that comes out of this relates to the "alpha roll". I cringe every time I see somebody throw their dog on its back in an effort to "dominate" it or to punish the dog. Here's a quote from the article about the "alpha roll":
"Watch an episode of the Dog Whisperer and you’re likely to see examples of this supposed rehabilitation. It involves choking dogs out with their leashes when they react undesirably; it involves forcing a dog to confront objects or situations they’re desperately afraid of (a technique called flooding); it involves exercising a dog to the point of exhaustion so they simply do not have the energy to react negatively; it involves “alpha rolls” - a move in which he will flip a dog onto its back and pin it down belly up until the dog stops struggling. His reasoning behind this particular move is that this is what wolves do in the wild to assert authority. What he fails to inform the owners of is that wild wolves offer this behavior voluntarily, they aren’t forcibly pinned down. He also fails to realize or mention that the only time a true alpha roll occurs in the wild is when one wolf intends to kill the other. So an alpha roll for a dog involves being delivered a serious threat of intent to harm and a healthy dose of piss-your-pants terror. Not exactly the best way to build the dog’s confidence."
It also goes on to talk about how by using his methods you are essentially forcing your dog into submission by terrifying it to the point where it is afraid to do certain negative behaviors rather than teaching the dog the "right" behaviors using positive reinforcement (which has been scientifically proven to be the better and more effective method).
Here's another good article:
http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
and http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm
Anyway, just wanted to share :-)
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Nina & Nellie on
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Oh my god, I only saw two videos and that was enough. He seems to hate both dogs and people alike and has no respect for either of them.
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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I also wanted to address flooding.
Desensitization is great, but to work you need to start with the stimulus at a level the dog does not react to (whether it's because of distance, low volume, whatever). You reward the dog for noticing the stimulus but not responding to it. Over time, you work your way closer to the stimulus (or in the case of sound, increase the volume) until eventually the dog does not react.This is the gold standard training method, and it's wonderful. Problem is, it requires you to be able to control your dog's exposure to the stimulus. So if your dog is dog-reactive, you can leash them and walk them and keep them far enough away from other dogs.
But what if your dog is terrified of the road in front of the house? A woman I knew from a TDI group had a Sheltie who saw another family dog get hit by a car in the road. The dog is now terrified of the road and is basically house-bound. There is no physical way to use classic desensitization here. She can't get far enough away from the road. I suggested she leash the dog up and just walk her parallel to the road back and forth several times a day while offering treats if she was not shut down. Would this be flooding? Yes, but how many alternatives are there?
When Jack was an adolescent, he developed a rapidly escalating fear of anything with a long handle (Mop, broom, swiffer). I suppose something may have fallen and crashed when he walked by, but I never saw anything so who knows?How am I meant to desensitize a dog to brooms over a long period of time in a house? Realistically, would we have one person take the dog outside every time we wanted to sweep or do the floors? You bet I used flooding. I put a leash on him, propped up a broom, got some bacon bits and every night we walked past that broom about 20 times. He was not totally shut down because he'd take food, but he scooted and ran, balked and froze, etc. He was (and is) an otherwise confident dog who usually moves towards (rather than away from) things that frighten him. After about a week of this, he was slightly skittish but not balking or bolting. At that point I started putting peanut butter on the handle, and then I had him jump over the broom. For several weeks after that, I gave him treats every time I used one of these items. And now he's not at all afraid of them and sometimes I have to ask him to move for me when I'm sweeping because he gets in the way.
So desensitization is all well and good, but when you are dealing with every day items that you can't avoid during the process, you are left with not a lot of options. And when the fear is irrational, flooding is sometimes the best and quickest course of action. For a dog who is afraid of EVERYTHING that won't work, but for an otherwise happy dog who has an unreasonable fear of something? Sure there's a place for it.
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By the way, I've watched a lot of episodes and I only saw him doing anything that could be called "choking" a dog twice. Once was the Korean street dog who was actively attacking its owner; the guy had rehabbed dozens of dogs but this one was very aggressive with him. The other was a similar case of aggression towards people. Neither was fear-based; both these dogs had learned that by threatening violence, they could control a room of people. And in both cases, the violent confrontation was started by the dog and Cesar was just defending himself. When dogs have learned that being a bully works, and everyone is afraid of them, sometimes they just need to see that they won't win every fight.
I've seen him use peanut butter to engage the nose (and taste) of a Golden who was afraid of the garage. He used a feather toy and chase games to help settle a fear-aggressive cocker spaniel (and taught the owner how to come across as less intimidating to the dog). He used cheese to help condition a dog not to bark hysterically at every passing dog he saw. He used hand-feeding into a bowl to overcome food-guarding (and scolded the owners for correcting the dog).
He recommended neutering to two clients whose intact males were fighting. I have seen him use three of his own dogs to help another dog overcome its phobia of going outside. I saw him feed bananas to a dog who was house-soiling and eating the mess.
I've never seen him exercise a dog to exhaustion. I have seen him run out-of-shape dogs til they were panting, but not collapsing from exhaustion. He only rolls a small minority of the dogs he deals with, and most of those are dogs who actively challenge people with teeth. It is true that the alpha roll is a direct threat to the dog. That's why it should be used rarely.
I will say again that most of his worst critics have clearly watched very few of his shows, and have taken a handful of the scariest footage and played it out as if this is how he treats every dog. The one dog he used flooding on was a rescue dog who had spent the better part of a year living in the office hiding under the chair, and nothing the handlers there did helped overcome its fears. I saw him drag that dog out on a leash and get it moving and by halfway through the walk, I saw a happy dog with a relaxed, waving tail, soft eyes, half-mast ears, and soft smiling mouth.
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Permalink Reply by Melissa and Franklin! on
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I've never seen him use treats or food of any kind so am definitely interested in watching more recent episodes. I haven't watched the show in years because I was so turned off by the several I had seen on tv. They were reruns so I'm sure they just played the most dramatic ones for better viewership. Every show I watched he was pretty rough with the dogs and did not allow the owners to show the dog ANY affection whatsoever. The show is on Hulu so it would be interesting to see some of these episodes where he is taking things slower and using food as motivation.
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Permalink Reply by Amy & Corky on
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I'm curious as to why that seems so awful, that during Cesar's training with the dog, the owner was asked not to show affection. The purpose was usually to remove, for a short period of time, the anxious influence of the owner. It seems the show just offends your sensibilities & sentiments.
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Permalink Reply by Linda on
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It would be redundant of me to repeat what Beth has posted so I will just say that I agree with her.
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Permalink Reply by Anna Morelli on
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Melissa, I'm with you when it comes to the various training methods you list and, taking Cesar Milan out of it, I've seen all of these methods both advocated and applied during workshops by well known trainers over the years and in videos on training of military dogs. Too many people try "to be the boss" AFTER they have made umpteen mistakes with their dog that has netted them the results they have. Too many who market themselves as trainers have either little understanding of dog behavior ( especially of breed specific behaviors) or, having some knowledge, mis-read the dog, the situation or both. To be a good animal trainer takes a good dose of humility, a lot of observation skills, the desire to truly understand creatures whose perceptions and mindset we can never fully comprehend. The staggering number of dogs euthanized daily, many for behavior problems, tell us we are doing a terrible job of it. It sickens me to think what many of these animals have been through and go through. Positive methods may or may not work in all cases, but the harm they can do is miniscule, compared to the other methods cited. Owners are usually uncomfortable with the mentioned techniques, but follow the "experts". Even when they do work ( and sometimes they do) they are crude, abusive and often backfire.
The best training method is prevention. The smarter the breed and the smarter the individual dog, the smarter the owners should be.... enough said.
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Permalink Reply by John Wolff on
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Remember that anything you see on TV is highly filtered by the medium. Some things (like dramatic violence) show well on TV; other things (like quiet nurturing) do not. Alpha rolls show well on TV; patient coaxing might not. So what you see of Cesar Milan on TV might be highly distorted.
See "4 Arguments for the Elimination of Television", by Gerry Mander.
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I agree and I guess this is where I take issue. To train a dog with severe behavior problems does not take 1 day, it takes weeks, months, and even years so to have a show that gives the idea that these behaviors can be modified in minutes or hours or to repeatedly show things like the alpha roll as a recommended training method give the wrong idea to the average lay person. I am not anti-Cesar per se, I am anti- The Dog Whisperer the TV show. I don't know Cesar, but I do know the show often distorts reality and too many people watch and repeat what he does with no clue about what they are doing.
Since posting this and reading so many "pro Cesar" comments I have tried to give him another chance (since I haven't watched his show since it first came out). I am still on the fence. A large part is because one of the few episodes I have recently watched featured a 10 month old retriever that had developed severe food aggression. The owners clearly stated "we watch all of your shows and have tried all of your methods and he has gotten much worse in a very short amount of time". Footage of the owner correcting the dog showed them attempting an alpha roll, the owner got severely bit. This dog was obviously very unsure of what was expected at feeding time, watching footage he did not come off as aggressive but rather insecure and the owners repeated attempts at correcting the behavior using dominance methods clearly showed the dog's insecurity (and therefore aggression) escalating to the point where the owner was bit and Cesar had to step in to help. I see this over and over and over where owners attempt his methods despite the "don't try this at home" warning and end up making an easily fixed behavior into a case of severe anxiety and aggression. Working as a vet tech I see it ALL the time. We have a number of dogs come in for euthanasia due to aggression or that owners are trying to rehome and many have used these dominance methods on dogs that are very sensitive and confused. We are lucky to have a lot of really good behaviorists and trainers in my area including UC Davis Veterinarians/behaviorists so these owners can seek help and not have to surrender their pets. It just frustrates me that yes he fixes a lot of severe cases, but often (at least in my experience) these cases become so severe BECAUSE of some of his methods to begin with. This is all obviously only my opinion and based on my experience. I know others will have varying opinions on the matter.
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I do understand your concerns. I guess I would counter with a few things of my own. First, what did CESAR do with the food-guarding dog? I'm curious to know since I've only seen him tackle this once or twice and I'm not sure if he has a consistent method.
And then I would say that while I agree it makes me shudder to see how people misapply his methods, I would also argue that "positive" methods are not always benign when used badly, either. How many people have worsened severe separation anxiety by making huge fusses over their dogs when they come or go? How many people have high-energy dogs that get turned into shelters simply because they don't get enough exercise? A pushy, dominant dog can soon learn to use threats and posturing to get his way with a mild-mannered owner who caves to his demands; these dogs will frequently escalate to using teeth to "correct" mis-behaving humans who have forgotten their place. How many people have we heard right on this forum create or worsen food-guarding because they think they should get their dog used to being petted and handled while he eats? That's a "positive" method misused to create aggression where it did not exist, or worsen it where it already did exist.
If you want to hear things to make you shudder, take a look at some of the deprivation techniques used by some of the top agility people who really believe they are using "positive only" methods to train their dogs to such a high level.
Dominance methods have been around for a long, long time. The Monks of New Skete were the first ones to popularize the alpha roll. Pick up some sporting dog training books. Check out all the e-collars on gun dogs. Look into the methods used by many police dog trainers. There are many, many trainers out there who are violent with dogs.
As far as "quick fixes", you are correct that severe behaviors can take a long time to fix. On the other hand, as Cesar always points out, he trains PEOPLE, not dogs. Many of the behaviors on the show are not so much severe as just examples of dogs who are out-of-control. And yes, often that does just take a few minutes with someone who knows what they are doing to correct. If my husband can't get Jack to come off the couch and to the door for his last potty of the night without bribing him with a treat, but I can say "Jack, go to Daddy" from UPSTAIRS and the dog listens to me, is that a behavior problem, or a handler problem? If Maddie hits the end of the leash barking whenever she sees another dog when my husband has her, but generally ignores other dogs when I have her, is that a serious behavior problem, or a handler problem?
When my parents' Chessie was a puppy, and we would go over to visit, she would come leaping at everyone in greeting, but sit politely to say hi to me. If she was so wound up she could not sit, she would actually pass me by and come back later. I'm no miracle working, but I do have one thing that many owners lack: timing. A handler with good timing can virtually eliminate many problem behaviors in just a few minutes (in the case of the leaping puppy, I simply stepped back out of reach--- she was leashed or on a stake-out--- whenever she'd prepare to leave the ground, step back in when she'd keep four on the floor, and give the hand signal to sit after I had her attention). And that's what Cesar has, love him or hate him: impeccable timing.
One well-timed severe correction is less stressful to a dog than a thousand gentle nags. If you watch dogs with each other, their corrections are loud and scary, but also perfectly timed. Since many people lack any sense of timing, corrections are usually not the best choice for the average handler. And while it is true that positive methods in general may be slightly more benign (and have a slightly more generous timing window) I have seen plenty of people make a mess of their dogs without ever raising their voices, let alone raising a hand to them. Poorly timed rewards and loving neglect create a huge number of serious behavior issues too.
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Beth, I finished my post with "enough said..." Your points are well taken, I guess I should clarify by saying that there is no remedy for owner stupidity and that even the best method or technique can be misapplied. Deprivation is certainly not positive training by any stretch of the imagination and it is pitiful what many hunters, or people participating in field trials do in the training of their dogs. Dogs may be man's best friend, but man has much more to learn than to teach.
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