Potty training theories: to play or not to play
I have a good general understanding of potty training so this thread is not about that.
What I have noticed, though, is that some people on the forum take their pups out, do their business, give them a treat & praise and then come straight back inside. However, the method I read about and have been using warns NOT to come back inside immediately because the dog will learn to hold it in order to play outside for longer and then pee/poo inside. Both Victoria Stilwell and Ian Dunbar advocate this.
However, as an addendum to the method I've been using, you're supposed to put the puppy back into the crate if he does not go and then take him out 15 minutes later, which I think would curtail the pottying inside (unless if they are too young to hold it in the crate...)
Which method have people been using that has actually worked for them (i.e. your dogs are definitely 100% housetrained now)? Also, what is "inside" -- inside the crate, inside the pen, inside the entire house? Would letting them have freedom in an area inside the house instead of letting them walk around the yard have the same effect?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Nina & Nellie on
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Also, as an aside, I have met dogs that did learn to hold their pottying when taken out into the yard in order to go out and mark the neighborhood during walks. One of these dogs could hold her pee up to 18 hours and her poo up to 24 hours, all while eating and drinking normally. So it's not too far of a stretch for me to imagine a dog that could learn to hold their potty in order to stay outside.
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Permalink Reply by Ludi on
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When I was teaching my two to use the courtyard as a bathroom, toilet time was strictly monitored. They weren't off-lead, they weren't given free roam to sniff and roll and frap and whatever. I monitored their food and water intake, their activity levels, and generally the time frame we were in, took them out on the lead, waited in one small area until they went - I'd give them a generous 5 full minutes, if they didn't go they were confined with a lead to me in the house (or in Ace's case, a crate) until our next try in 10-15 minutes.
This worked marvellously for both dogs. My Border Collie pees and poos on command now, and will head back inside the doors on auto-pilot once she's finished her business. She knows toilet time is NOT play time. Ace is a little more annoying in this regard and does go outside for toilet on a lead, simply because our neighbours are dingdongs and keep leaving entire loaves of bread out on the common grass "for the birds". And knowing Ace, he'd try to eat the entire thing.
As for your second question about what the "inside" consists of, what do you mean by that?
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That's what I do with Nellie too, but what do you do after they go: let them off lead outside? Walk around with them on lead outside? Bring them inside immediately but give them free roam of the house/area of the house?
What I meant is that I wanted a clarification of what "don't bring them directly inside" means. For example, sometimes I let Nellie run in a room of the house she normally doesn't get free roam in except for after potty and occasionally when I know she isn't going to piddle. Or I bring her to her pen but do some training exercises or play with her. Is that still bad, or can that be an equivalent to letting them roam outside for a bit after they go?
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I gauge it based on what they've done outside, versus what went in. If I was anticipating a poo but my puppy didn't do one yet, only a pee, then they'd be restricted to one small area with me constantly supervising. We'd usually play, or tickle/cuddles. As soon as there's a lull in their attention from me, back out to the designated spot they went for a poo.
I personally dislike the notion of rewarding my dog with aimless sniffing outside after their toilet. For me, a toilet trip is just to accomplish one thing - evacuating X or Y, in a prompt fashion. I made it up to my dogs by taking them down to the courtyard far more frequently than they would have ever needed. We played ball, I let them sniff all the wonderful smells outside, we'd go for a walk, or meet new people... the point is, "fun trips" were wholly separate from toilet trips. Thanks to being very strict about this, my dogs hold zero resentment against me for toilet time. They know that either in the dead of winter or in 25C heat, when I tell them to go pee or poo, it means just that and nothing else!
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I'd love to use this method, Nellie just likes to sniff and chew and pick up random crap (sometimes literally) from the ground after she finishes, but then of course I worry about her learning to hold it/having really slow potties if I go back inside right away. Since she isn't allow out on walks etc we don't go outside much except for potty breaks.
So when you say you make it up to them by taking them to the courtyard, do you do this after they potty? Or on a separate trip?
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How come she's not allowed on walks? At this age it is absolutely vital to have her socialised with animals and humans (especially) alike. I believe there are other threads where we discussed the pros and cons of taking a young puppy out in-between vaccination appointments and generally speaking, the risk of having a poorly socialised adult dog is far greater than falling ill to something like Parvovirus provided that A) You take necessary precautions like avoiding dog parks or areas where dogs have urinated/defecated and B) Interactions with other dogs are monitored and try to prefer play partners who are gentle and healthy.
Of course, this is all your choice but speaking as someone with a puppy who came to them with a fairly low level of socialisation, I can say that if you can avoid it, please do. It is heartbreaking to watch Ace be terrified of people he's known for over a year, just because he didn't learn early enough that humans = good.
I do it on a separate trip. I'd do a toilet time, they'd go back up, we'd mess around and play upstairs at home before going back down again for play time. I got a lot of stair exercise when these two were young, let me tell you!
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Her vaccination schedule was delayed a little more than normal, so unfortunately she doesn't get her 3rd shot until this Wednesday. However I do socialize her plenty; I take her to pet stores, puppy socials, have playdates at my or a friend's house, etc. She has no problem with any kind of people or dogs, loves men and kids as well as women, although she has never met someone disabled/in a wheelchair so unfortunately time will tell if she reacts to that. She came to me that way; she would probably leap into stranger's arms if she could.
I see, that sounds like a good idea. Potty = play inside seems reasonable to me. I usually try to do that, or at least unhook the leash inside and let her roam around for a bit before putting her back in the pen/crate.
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Ah okay, very nice. :-) Sorry, didn't know what plans you had for socialising. I can say, though, try to find someone with a wheelchair sooner than later because my Border Collie never saw one, then met her first at around 7 months. She barked like mad at it because it was, to her, a very odd shape and noise. It was more than embarrassing!
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No worries :) I'm paranoid about walking around with her but I take her to as many events as I can -- helps socialize as well as tire her out :)
Hmmm... I'll try to find a wheelchair-bound person, but they're actually really uncommon where I am. I wouldn't know where to go except maybe camp out in front of a hospital, lol. She'll still unfortunately miss that 16 week mark but I plan on taking her to a lot more outings when she has her 3rd shot.
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Permalink Reply by Jen Giammona on
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We got Linus in June of last year. The weather was nice and we were staying with my mother who has a huuuuuuuuuge backyard. If someone was at home, Linus was pretty much outside all day. Any time he went to the bathroom in the yard, we gave him a treat and tons of praise and play. He was pretty much potty trained when we got him at 10 weeks. We never crated him, only penned him. We took him out about every 2 hours (even overnight) to go potty outside. Pretty soon he started whining in his pen if he wanted to go out. If he went to the bathroom outside he got a treat, if he didn't, we just went back inside. He averaged about 1-2 accidents a week. It was mostly diligence on our part to make sure we took him out often enough, or realized the signs of when he was going to pee/poop in the house. He also learned to go on the pads in the house, so we made sure they were everywhere at first, then we slowly started to remove some of them.
Back to your original concern, I think it's about learning your dog and what works for you. All of these training theories are great, but Linus was "ornery" (that's how the breeder described him, lol) and we mostly conformed to what worked for him. We also didn't do any formal "training" with him until he was 6 months old, because he was just a stubborn puppy who didn't understand. Now he's a year old, and mostly well behaved, and does well with his training sessions. Enjoy your puppy and figure out what works best for you and Nellie.
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Lol! Nellie has been weird about potty training, she used to give signals and now she doesn't -- yesterday she gave me a huge panting smile and then immediately turned around and peed next to her water bowl. I can't tell at all if she's about to go, sometimes she paces but then she'll pace around anyway so I don't know what her "normal" behavior is compared to her pottying behavior. She used to whine and paw at the crate/pen if she needed to go, and now she doesn't.
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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Bringing them inside immediately after pottying teaches some dogs that "as soon as I potty, I go inside." This can be good or bad, depending on the dog. A shy puppy, or one who does not like bad weather, or one who just prefers to be inside, may see this as a good thing.
But a puppy who loves being outside may realize that if he waits to potty, he gets to stay out longer. I can tell you that I realized one of mine was intentionally holding it when we had a bitter cold snap and I'd bring him in as soon as he'd potty. I noticed that after a day or two of this, my usual quick pottier was just wandering around and NOT pottying.
The thing with asking people their own experience is they have probably housetrained maybe 3 to 5 dogs in their lives. Trainers see dozens or hundreds of dogs and are looking at a bigger picture.
My advice is, when puppy is young build some time in your schedule to stay outside for five to ten minutes after the puppy potties, so he does not associate pottying with going inside, UNLESS your puppy does not like the outdoors.
Even with an adult, make sure that at least half of the potty trips involve some fun time outside after pottying is complete, or you may develop a slow pottier, which is a nuisance in a downpour or when it's below zero.If they don't go, put them in pen or crate for 15 minutes and try again; a whole room is too big.
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