Tails: the docking question
Docking. Some people find the subject a bit controversial. In several countries, docking done strictly for appearance is banned. Here in the US, of course, Pembroke Welsh Corgis are generally docked completely.
I understand that there are lots of practical reasons why certain working breeds have docked tails. In many instances, docking quite likely actually reduces the risk of injury for dogs that are running through heavy brush, or going to ground after one varmint or another. I don't personally have a problem with the practice.
When I decided Corgis were the breed for me, and started looking at lots of Corgis, I did (and still do) love their cute little bunny bottoms that sashay when they walk. When we visited the breeder, the bitch was of course on site, but the stud was off-premises so we could not meet him. The breeder said we could find him online, though, and of course we went looking.
And then I saw Dundee's tail. You see, Dundee (Anwyl Winds O' Change) is from Finland by way of Australia, and apparently where he comes from, they don't dock. Having seen the ratty tails that some traditionally docked breeds sport, I wasn't expecting much. But my oh my, how cute and regal Dundee does look with his full tail!! He looks noble when standing square, and jolly as could be when he's waving it over his back in play.
Here's some pics of Dundee:
It is enough to make me want a tailed Corgi. Problem is, they dock when they are just a few days old to avoid trauma, and most good breeders do not want to select a particular pup for you til they are old enough to judge temperament, so they can match the dog's personality best to your lifestyle.
Is there any move towards tailed Corgis in this country? It seems at this point that the practical reasons for docking have vanished and it's done for fashion and tradition at this point.
Thoughts?
Edit: And I do understand some are born with a natural bob, and apparently they are trying to recapture this trait in Britain, where docking has been recently banned.
I understand that there are lots of practical reasons why certain working breeds have docked tails. In many instances, docking quite likely actually reduces the risk of injury for dogs that are running through heavy brush, or going to ground after one varmint or another. I don't personally have a problem with the practice.
When I decided Corgis were the breed for me, and started looking at lots of Corgis, I did (and still do) love their cute little bunny bottoms that sashay when they walk. When we visited the breeder, the bitch was of course on site, but the stud was off-premises so we could not meet him. The breeder said we could find him online, though, and of course we went looking.
And then I saw Dundee's tail. You see, Dundee (Anwyl Winds O' Change) is from Finland by way of Australia, and apparently where he comes from, they don't dock. Having seen the ratty tails that some traditionally docked breeds sport, I wasn't expecting much. But my oh my, how cute and regal Dundee does look with his full tail!! He looks noble when standing square, and jolly as could be when he's waving it over his back in play.
Here's some pics of Dundee:
It is enough to make me want a tailed Corgi. Problem is, they dock when they are just a few days old to avoid trauma, and most good breeders do not want to select a particular pup for you til they are old enough to judge temperament, so they can match the dog's personality best to your lifestyle.
Is there any move towards tailed Corgis in this country? It seems at this point that the practical reasons for docking have vanished and it's done for fashion and tradition at this point.
Thoughts?
Edit: And I do understand some are born with a natural bob, and apparently they are trying to recapture this trait in Britain, where docking has been recently banned.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Sam Tsang on
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Here's a previous thread on this topic with 66 replies. Here's the undock pem group, you can also find more info there as well. I'm not a breeder and I do not show dogs, I'm just a simple dog owner who enjoy the breed. I think tails are important and they assist in communications. Since my back ground is in the medical field, my preference is to keep things natural :)
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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Thank, Sam!
Corgis have very expressive faces, but I think we miss a few things by not being able to see our guy's tail carriage. He came from a reputable breeder, so he is docked very short (according to show-ring preference, as she was a show breeder) and does not even have a stub. There's nothing there.
When he is very excited, you can see the muscles twitching that would cause his tail to wag. But that does not happen when a tailed dog would be giving a more gentle wag (as they would during a calm greeting, for example).
We don't get to see the flagging of an excited or very interested dog, and we need to try to interpret by his head and ear carriage the signs of nervousness or submission or exhaustion that would normally be most evident by a lowered or tucked tail carriage.
I know the current show standard prefers a short dock, but our pup's father did some winning in this country with a tail (his page says he was the first fully tailed Corgi in the AKC breed ring, but I don't know if that's true). Now that all the imports will be tailed or with a natural bob, I wonder if that will impact our standard here? Breed standards do change, and many breeds that were once shown with cropped ears are now natural, for example.
We were very happy with the breeder we got Jack from, and would like to get another from her next year. But she shows, and therefore she docks....
Edit: I should say that Dundee's page says he is the first tailed Pem to be offered at stud in the US, who also showed in the AKC breed ring.
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Permalink Reply by Wendt Worth Corgi's on
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This has been a heavy conversation on the show pem forums. The breed standard states no longer then 2" so the standard would have to be re written. I could get into very detailed discussion on either behalf but won't here as its more of preference to many here. Some Pems are born as natural Bobs and in many countries where tail docking is banned breeders are breeding stock w/natural bobs in hopes more natural bobs are produced. My Baron comes from a line of natural bobs. There is a breeder that does not dock her pems tails. Here is a link to her. http://www.petsonsale.com/members/ezbrook/corgisforsale.html
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Permalink Reply by DR, Nala & Simon on
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Dundee is a gorgeous looking corgi!!! For me with tail or no tail, I love them anyway. I am ok with docking the tail long as it doesn't interfere with the dogs health of course. And yes, I will own a Pem with tail if I can find one.
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Permalink Reply by Manda and Chloe on
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i agree they do have beautiful tails but i am partial because my tri has her full tail. as for where to find a breeder that doesnt dock i will be of no help as chloe was a rescue and i dont really know where she came from.
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Permalink Reply by Denise Hawkins on
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Both of my boys have their tails, although our Reggie only has a half tail, with an "s" type bend at the end of it. Our 1st every corgi was docked and I have to say I prefer their brushy tails now. They really do show the expression and emotions of the dog better than their faces. Here in the UK we no longer dock any dog unless it is for health reasons.
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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
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I have to say my preference would be for the undocked since there really does not appear to be a practical reason anymore. Sparty has a natural dock but it is only about two inches. It is very cute when he wags it in excitement(which is most of the time). Izzy comes from a very good breeder who breeds for show and has nothing in the way of a tail. We probably miss a lot of wagging because she is almost always happy but we still love her. Maybe since it has been stopped in some other countries the practice will eventually stop here too. Either way they will still be corgis with all that entails just like the poorly bred rescue corgis are still wonderful little dogs that just need a family to love them. So I will still want them at my house!
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Permalink Reply by Geri & Sidney on
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Here is a link to the statement made by the World Small Animal Veterinary Association:
WSAVA Tail Docking Position Statement
partial list of countries that have banned docking:
# Australia: Banned in some states and territories as of June 2004.[9] Legal in Western Australia, although restricted to Veterinarians.[10]
# Austria: Banned as of 1 January 2005 according to the "Bundestierschutzgesetz" §7.1
# Belgium: Banned as of 1 January 2006
# Brazil: Banned for cosmetic purposes.
# Canada: From 28 March 2009 cosmetic surgery including tail docking will be banned by the New Brunswick Veterinary Medical Association. This includes tail docking in dogs, horses, and cows.
# Croatia: Banned
# Cyprus: Banned in 1991[11]
# Czech Republic: Banned
# Denmark: Banned as of 1 June 1996, with exceptions for five gun dog breeds
# England: Restricted as of 2006 - can only be done by vet on a number of working dog breeds.[12]
# Estonia: Banned as of 2001
# Finland: Banned in 1992. Exception on tail docking, although banned on dog shows.[2]
# France: Banned as of 4 August 2003
# Germany: Banned on 1 May 1992, with exceptions for working gun dogs.[2]
# Greece: Banned in 1991[11]
# Hungary: Banned
# Iceland: Banned as of 2001
# Ireland: Banned as of January 2008. For Northern Ireland, see its listing below.
# Israel: Banned for cosmetic purposes in 2000.[2]
# Italy: Banned in Rome and Turin
# Latvia: Banned
# Lithuania: Banned
# Luxembourg: Banned in 1991[11]
# Netherlands: Banned as of 1 September 2001
# Norway: Docking banned since 1987
# Slovakia: Banned as of 1 January 2003
# South Africa: Banned as of June 2007
# Sweden: Banned as of 1989. Apparent increase in tail injuries reported among working dogs after ban.[2]
# Switzerland: Banned as of 1 July 1981 for the ears and 1988 for the tail[2]
# United States: Unrestricted (some states, including New York,[13] and Vermont have considered bills to make the practice illegal)
# Virgin Islands: Banned as of 2005
# Wales: Same legislation as England.
Sidney is undocked, and his tail is beautiful.
It wags like crazy when he's happy or playful.
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Permalink Reply by Lou Ann Lemaster on
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Duncan was docked by the breeders. He has a little "nubbin" I call it, and love watching it wiggle when he is happy. My first corgi had a nubbin, also.
My corgi/chow mix has her tail, and it's beautiful and bushy, just like Dundee in the picture. So, if it ever comes to where the tail is no longer allowed to be docked, it wouldn't bother me. Although, I would miss the bunny butt!
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Permalink Reply by Sarah C. on
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I think pems have gorgeous tails, but I prefer docked on mine, not just for the asthetic.
I am forever slamming doors, opening gates, closing gates, shutting the car, shoveling, hammering, and the dog is right in it. Being that I'm notoriously clumsy, if she had a tail, I'm certain she wouldn't have had it very long. Especially since they're not good thick otter tails like labs.
While corgis are cute, when I was choosing dogs, I was choosing for size and ruggedness. In choosing an "everything dog" that would be comfortable most places and be sturdy enough for the hazards in our home (my dad with alzheimer's, me working in the garden, sculpting, and small children) the no-tail to pull on, step on, slam, roll over, chop or crush was a huge selling factor.
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