Questions about Dogfoodanalysis website
Ok, I know how passionate people are about their food conversations! LOL So, I hope this stays quite civil because I genuinely am puzzled by some of what I hear. So yes, I am actually going to go there and ask some questions.
It seems to me that quite a lot of people who feed premium foods are using info such as the type at the dog food analysis website. I have read their site and I have some concerns with some of their conclusions.
Now, it really doesn't matter to me what individuals decide to feed their dogs. If your dog is healthy and happy, great! There are several food threads going here. Opinions are a dime a dozen. Now on to my questions:
Corn. Ok, most of us probably agree that grain should not be the top ingredient in foods for an average dog (of course some dogs have special diets and special needs). Dog food analysis cites the inclusion of corn as a bad thing, mentioning that corn is a common food allergy. Well, true enough. But peanuts are the most common food allergy in people, followed closely by shellfish. Strawberries. Tree nuts. And yet peanuts, strawberries, and tree nuts are highly valued and healthy food sources for the vast majority of us who are not allergic. I've also seen mentioned that corn is "not digestible" yet can find quite a lot of scientific studies, actually weighing and measuring poops, that show that corn in the form found in dog foods is very digestible indeed. So, is this conclusion that corn= bad based on actual scientific studies? Or is it more of an opinion?
Grain-free. Again, studies show that grains are highly digestible by dogs. The website I mentioned states that in a "natural state" dogs didn't eat grains. Except the domestic dog as we know him never, ever existed in a natural state. I have yet to see a wild poodle! LOL. Dogs have been domesticated for around 15,000 years. During that time, every breed of dog known to man developed. Man fed dogs, man eats lots and lots of grain. I'm guessing here that, with food scarcity being a common problem up until about 50 years ago in even wealthy societies, most people did not feed their dogs lean cuts of meat and lots of tasty veggies. My guess is dogs got a lot of scraps, and considering the typical human diet those scraps included lots of grains. Remember, the modern dog is purely a creature of captivity, and would have been selectively bred to prosper on whatever food he was getting. So I guess I'm asking again, is there scientific evidence to back up the notion that dogs don't digest carbohydrates?
Finally, that ingredient listing. One of the 6 star foods listed saskatoon berries. Never heard of that, so I looked it up. It turns out it's serviceberry (juneberry). I have two bushes in my yard, and the birds go crazy for them. I'm lucky if I can get a single ripe berry. My guess is in nature, not many fall to the ground. Anywho, my dog walks by the bush frequently and doesn't show much interest (I understand John's dog does!). Seems like it's not high on his list of "natural diet." However, when we go for a walk in the woods, my dog will run a dead line from 50 yards out and find raccoon poop or whatever it is buried in the leaves and scoff it down right quick. LOL. My frantic "Leave it, leave it, LEAVE IT!!!" cries are met with faster swallowing on the part of the dog. My unscientific observation leads me to believe that animal poop is probably very high on the list of an unfed dog's favorite food groups. In small farming communities, I'm guessing cow poop and horse poop was probably quite a common snack for our pets' ancestors. But those saskatoon berries? Not so much.
I know that the antioxidants in berries are excellent for humans, but then we are descended from hunter-gatherer ancestors that likely ate lots of nuts and berries and plants. But did dogs? My dog has learned to like fruits and veggies, but it took him a few times before he figured it out. The first time he saw a piece of bread on the ground, though, he ate it in a hurry. So again, are there long-term studies that show that those particular antioxidants found in fruits help our doggie friends? Are we basing it on what we think is good for us, and assuming similar is good for the dogs? Can dogs successfully extract those nutrients from fruit? I know that dogs will naturally eat a certain amount of plant material if they are allowed to roam.
My biggest question is the big picture one: the "you would not want to eat these things" reference to some of the ingredients in traditional dog foods appeals to emotion. Of course I would not eat them. But my dog can eat poop, drink pond water, swallow worms, and several other gross things with no ill effects. My dog thinks plenty of things are lovely that I find gross. Dogs eat entrails. Dogs eat organs. Yuck and gross, in my opinion, but not the dog's.
I have tried to do research on line, but all I find to back up the claims of the foods is a circular argument where other people say "I have done a lot of research and I have found" and just keep citing back the same few web sites. I guess what I'm looking for is actual scientific studies that back up the claims of this site that quite a lot of what I consider to be high-quality foods are in fact junk.
It seems to me that quite a lot of people who feed premium foods are using info such as the type at the dog food analysis website. I have read their site and I have some concerns with some of their conclusions.
Now, it really doesn't matter to me what individuals decide to feed their dogs. If your dog is healthy and happy, great! There are several food threads going here. Opinions are a dime a dozen. Now on to my questions:
Corn. Ok, most of us probably agree that grain should not be the top ingredient in foods for an average dog (of course some dogs have special diets and special needs). Dog food analysis cites the inclusion of corn as a bad thing, mentioning that corn is a common food allergy. Well, true enough. But peanuts are the most common food allergy in people, followed closely by shellfish. Strawberries. Tree nuts. And yet peanuts, strawberries, and tree nuts are highly valued and healthy food sources for the vast majority of us who are not allergic. I've also seen mentioned that corn is "not digestible" yet can find quite a lot of scientific studies, actually weighing and measuring poops, that show that corn in the form found in dog foods is very digestible indeed. So, is this conclusion that corn= bad based on actual scientific studies? Or is it more of an opinion?
Grain-free. Again, studies show that grains are highly digestible by dogs. The website I mentioned states that in a "natural state" dogs didn't eat grains. Except the domestic dog as we know him never, ever existed in a natural state. I have yet to see a wild poodle! LOL. Dogs have been domesticated for around 15,000 years. During that time, every breed of dog known to man developed. Man fed dogs, man eats lots and lots of grain. I'm guessing here that, with food scarcity being a common problem up until about 50 years ago in even wealthy societies, most people did not feed their dogs lean cuts of meat and lots of tasty veggies. My guess is dogs got a lot of scraps, and considering the typical human diet those scraps included lots of grains. Remember, the modern dog is purely a creature of captivity, and would have been selectively bred to prosper on whatever food he was getting. So I guess I'm asking again, is there scientific evidence to back up the notion that dogs don't digest carbohydrates?
Finally, that ingredient listing. One of the 6 star foods listed saskatoon berries. Never heard of that, so I looked it up. It turns out it's serviceberry (juneberry). I have two bushes in my yard, and the birds go crazy for them. I'm lucky if I can get a single ripe berry. My guess is in nature, not many fall to the ground. Anywho, my dog walks by the bush frequently and doesn't show much interest (I understand John's dog does!). Seems like it's not high on his list of "natural diet." However, when we go for a walk in the woods, my dog will run a dead line from 50 yards out and find raccoon poop or whatever it is buried in the leaves and scoff it down right quick. LOL. My frantic "Leave it, leave it, LEAVE IT!!!" cries are met with faster swallowing on the part of the dog. My unscientific observation leads me to believe that animal poop is probably very high on the list of an unfed dog's favorite food groups. In small farming communities, I'm guessing cow poop and horse poop was probably quite a common snack for our pets' ancestors. But those saskatoon berries? Not so much.
I know that the antioxidants in berries are excellent for humans, but then we are descended from hunter-gatherer ancestors that likely ate lots of nuts and berries and plants. But did dogs? My dog has learned to like fruits and veggies, but it took him a few times before he figured it out. The first time he saw a piece of bread on the ground, though, he ate it in a hurry. So again, are there long-term studies that show that those particular antioxidants found in fruits help our doggie friends? Are we basing it on what we think is good for us, and assuming similar is good for the dogs? Can dogs successfully extract those nutrients from fruit? I know that dogs will naturally eat a certain amount of plant material if they are allowed to roam.
My biggest question is the big picture one: the "you would not want to eat these things" reference to some of the ingredients in traditional dog foods appeals to emotion. Of course I would not eat them. But my dog can eat poop, drink pond water, swallow worms, and several other gross things with no ill effects. My dog thinks plenty of things are lovely that I find gross. Dogs eat entrails. Dogs eat organs. Yuck and gross, in my opinion, but not the dog's.
I have tried to do research on line, but all I find to back up the claims of the foods is a circular argument where other people say "I have done a lot of research and I have found" and just keep citing back the same few web sites. I guess what I'm looking for is actual scientific studies that back up the claims of this site that quite a lot of what I consider to be high-quality foods are in fact junk.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Cindi on
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Good point on BPA and plastics. Patti and I are ordering water bottles (with corgis on them of course) from CafePress. No more plastic for us.
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Permalink Reply by Nicole, Stanley and STELLA! on
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Beth,
Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for this post! Before I joined this website, I had no idea about the extent to which the commercial dog food controversy had gotten. When I read what people were saying and then went to Dogfoodanalysis.com I felt horrible for even giving Stella Eukanuba for a couple of weeks when I first brought her home! But, as was mentioned, back in the day (which doesn't seem that long ago-I'm only 32) Eukanuba was the "top rate" stuff! I also was freaking out a little bit because the stuff that was getting the good ratings I had never even heard of and would not have access to. I live in a small town with the closest Pet Smart being an hour and a half away. It just wasn't going to be feasible for me to have constant access to those products. And I wasn't about to start ordering random foods that I had never even heard of online just because one website rates them with six stars based almost solely (from what I could tell) on the fact that they didn't contain corn!
Based more on experience than "research" (I'm a university professor currently finishing my PhD, so "research" consisting of Dogfoodanalysis.com and a handful of others with a circular argument is like my students who write a 20 page paper using only Wikipedia) I've decided to go with Hill's Science Diet Puppy, supplementing it with boiled chicken, brown rice (or sweet potato), and green beans, and also sometimes supplementing with plain yogurt or cottage cheese. So far, it seems to be working. Stella's coat has been growing in beautifully, and she has a lot of energy and has been getting positive check-ups at the vet. I know that Hill's "sponsors" vets, and, not that I agree with it or think it's the best thing, but almost everything that you wouldn't think is sponsored is sponsored these days (including universities). There are still good/better companies out there with better practices and products, and bad companies with bad practices, regardless of sponsorship. And the grain-free, corn-free, supposedly "better" dog foods have to turn a profit, too, just like the commercial ones. I feel like this dog food movement parallels the "organic" "green" phase/bandwagon, with all of the good and bad that comes with it.
Anyway, I'm not saying I'm against the other, supposedly "better" products out there. I honestly do not know enough about it and haven't done *real* research on the issue. As you said, the websites out there do take you in circles, and I am thankful to you for your thoughtful, informed and critical examination of them.
Thanks again,
Nicole
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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Yeah, it's hard not to feel guilty when so many people who are really into their dogs are talking about how crappy all these dog foods are and how wonderful their premium, hard-to-find food is instead. That's why I started looking into it, because I was feeling guilty against my better judgement, and when I sat down and read the arguments a lot of them seemed purely subjective to me.
I do think it's good to raise awareness of what is in foods, but I also think that it's troubling to play on people's emotions. I mean, the first thing most carnivores will eat is the entrails. Blech!! But it's the primo energy source, plus as mentioned in another post is where carnivores get those necessary nutrients that only come from vegetation. So if I find out a food my dog does well on has sheep guts in it, sure that makes me shudder a bit, but I think it would make the dog grin a big, sloppy grin.
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Permalink Reply by Sarah C. on
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animals that are carnivores DONT eat grains, but the DO eat the stomach contents of the things they eat. If they're an animal that eat deer/rabbits/voles other medium/small game, that'll be half digested grass ruts and nuts.
The against-corn stuff, I think, stems from the fact that it's in everything and people have become very suspicious of it. However, Corn untreated also isn't very nutritious. It needs to be treated in lye (nixtamal process?) for it to release its nutrients. Barley/oats/potatos and other plant-fiber things might be better. Then again, I'm not a vet. My puppy gets Wellness Core. My parents' cat eats friskies. The cat has loose poops and a dull coat. My dog has a shiny coat and good poops.
Feed your dog what they like and what works and leave the medical crap to the vets. Claiming your product cures things is bollocks and preying on people with sick animals and one of the reasons I got fussed at Solid Gold.
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Permalink Reply by Shepdog on
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You know... I talk dog food day in and day out.
What it comes down to, is dogs are simply like people. Some people do best on certain diets, others would do horrible on them. People ask me, "What dog food is the best?" and I usually reply, "What works best for you and your dog." If your food gives your dog a lovely coat, good muscle tone, healthy weight, and they enjoy it - well, then it's working for your dog. Every single one of my Shepherds did best on different diets, at different ratios. I had to really play around a bit both showing and working my dogs to find what suited them each best.
There so many choices in the dog food market right now that it's nearly overwhelming. There are "premium" foods I personally can't feed my dogs. My own thoughts right now about most grain-free diets is that many of them are fad diets, with way too much protein for a non-working dog. Frankly, that's about ninety percent of the dogs out there, including mine right now. What's funny is sometimes the carb ratio on those diets is higher than many of the simple one grain, one meat formulas, and I'm seeing some really heavy, bad coated dogs on them after being on them for a year. However, that is my experience, and perhaps other people in the industry don't have that in their area.
As for scientific studies, all the food companies (and proponents of certain diets) throw out their own. Like polls, you can choose to omit or add certain information, and there is (IMO) not a single, unbiased study out there on the internet. Not saying the bias is a bad thing, but people want to say what they do for their dogs is the best for all dogs, and that simply isn't true...
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I agree. But, you know, I have a lot of customers who fuss about the stuff from China. But that is a problem with our American manufacturers. The need for greed and lack of laws has let the door wide open for them to use inferior products.
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on the flip side if you eat a serving of corn in the kernel, well...
I think we all know about that.
Roughage like that has a place for adding "bulk" to poo so you don't get the hard lumps that have your dog stuck in "go" posture for several minutes.
For aesthetics, I go with green beans for the pup. lol.
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Permalink Reply by Abbea and Vivi on
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I think I'll have to agree with you Beth. The actual analysis of the dog foods are quite biased, and they do rate things badly just because it could possibly by an allergen to some dogs. But, I like the website because it has all the food labels in one place, so I can look at them and compare them for myself. The grocery store type of dog food probably isn't as bad as some would make it seem but I still want to give my dogs something without by-products or mystery meat (unnamed protein) and that has meat as the main ingredient. I think grains can be good for dogs, as well as vegetables and even corn. But really, it depends on the dog what food they do well on. Kudos for this post!
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Permalink Reply by Boo Buchheit on
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The guys have decided bugs they dig up are their favorite food...they are not on the list with any stars.
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LOL! Very funny! Yea, I didn't see "cat s@#t" on the list with any stars either, yet Jack can spot it buried at 100 yards. He's like one of those drug-sniffing dogs, except he sniffs out cat poop instead of drugs! Is there money to be made in that field?
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Let me tell you. When we had a ranch the rat-cats there would eat as many grasshoppers as they could catch, and every spring when they came out, they had the glossiest coats. They could've rivaled any show kitty in the land.
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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
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I can not even begin to guess about some of the things Sparty has gotten over the years. I used to let him off leash in our woods since he is not a wanderer but after the deer foot covered with maggots I decided I might want to have better control. Fortunately he usually has an iron stomach. Considering how allergic he is to almost everything it is great that his stomach is strong!
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