Need training advice: Straightness?
I know quite a few people here have done various levels of obedience, agility, or rally training and I'm hoping someone can give me some tips.
I am not working with a trainer and have more or less trained Jack myself. We have our CGC/TDI certificates and I hope to move up to agility or rally in the spring when icy roads won't be an issue.
Jack is pretty quick and responsive, but I have no idea how to keep him straight when he's working next to me. If we do a sit or down at heel, he is likely to be sitting half facing me at an angle rather than straight on. And backing up at heel is the same thing; he backs up at a 30 to 45 degree angle from me. If we are working against a wall or fence, of course, he's fine.
I know how to straighten a horse from my experience riding, but that involves leg aids which obviously I can't use on my dog! LOL Are there any good methods out there to keep a dog straight when he's doing heel work? I thought it might be something we can work on over the winter, when the vast majority of my training time is spent trapped inside.
Thanks!
I am not working with a trainer and have more or less trained Jack myself. We have our CGC/TDI certificates and I hope to move up to agility or rally in the spring when icy roads won't be an issue.
Jack is pretty quick and responsive, but I have no idea how to keep him straight when he's working next to me. If we do a sit or down at heel, he is likely to be sitting half facing me at an angle rather than straight on. And backing up at heel is the same thing; he backs up at a 30 to 45 degree angle from me. If we are working against a wall or fence, of course, he's fine.
I know how to straighten a horse from my experience riding, but that involves leg aids which obviously I can't use on my dog! LOL Are there any good methods out there to keep a dog straight when he's doing heel work? I thought it might be something we can work on over the winter, when the vast majority of my training time is spent trapped inside.
Thanks!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Sky and Lyla on
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Are you familiar with Karen Pryor's training methods? She is one of the major people in clicker training. Her book Don't Shoot the Dog talks about a principle in clicker training called "shaping." Shaping is basically where you slowly reward any progress toward the behavior that you desire until the behavior has been "shaped" into exactly what you want. In order to shape effectively you have to be able to pin point the exact movement that you liked, this is where a clicker comes in real handy, but you could use a special word as a marker like "yes!" that you ONLY use in these situations. The marker is always followed by a treat.
So in your situation, you want to shape Jack to be parallel with you. I would start by standing with him by my side, and if he moved a foot closer to me, mark it and reward. It may take several times before he figures out what he is getting rewarded for, that's okay. Then, the goal is that he'll start offering behaviors on his own to figure out which is getting him treats. Shaping is a slow process, so reward any slight improvement toward the goal. Once he seems to have that down, say moving the foot, then wait until his whole back end is a little more toward you. Once he has that, a little more straight to get the treat, etc. Then once he has it at a stand, try it walking.
Another thing to know about shaping is that once you add a new criteria, say walking, you have to kind of start from the beginning again. So walking a little towards you mean a mark and a reward. When you start backing up, remember to relax in your requirements again. Always set him up to succeed.
I'm sure you can google Karen Pryor or Shaping and get a better explanation. Her book Don't Shoot the Dog is great, and is actually less about dog training (although it is in the pet section of the book store and does contain a lot about positive reinforcement of animals) and more about getting anyone/anything to do what you want whether it's your dog, your spouse, or yourself. Very good stuff!
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P.S., I wouldn't worry about this for your Agility. Jack is going to be doing so many different things and you're just going to be struggling to keep up with him and tell him the next obstacle!
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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Thanks! I'm familiar with shaping. We don't clicker, but Jack knows that a quiet "good" means he's getting warmer and responds to that.
It's a minor issue. I mean, he'll sit at heel when I stop while we're walking, he'll back up if I back up (with an enthusiastic "aroo, arooo!"). He'll work off the right or the left. I understand exactly why he gets crooked: he's trying to watch my face for my reaction, and sitting at a slight angle to me allows him to see my face better, especially because I have limited range of motion in my neck so I don't turn my head to face him, I just watch by moving my eyes to verify he's correct.
So I understand where he gets the crookedness from and I'll try some shaping to see if I can get him a bit straighter. This is why I could never do formal obedience for competition!!! The exactness and somewhat artificialness of it would drive me crazy (and probably him too; he doesn't like repetitive training methods).
He does stay straight when we move forward. It's just the sitting/down/backing up that he does at an angle.
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I bet it is the seeing the face thing! Dogs are so literal, I bet it has a lot to do with the fact that when you trained him he could see your face (obviously), and now he always wants to be able to do that. I had an Aussie in my agility class that was so literal, his owner (a sweet 11 year old girl who would just get frustrated to tears sometimes with this dog... there were many nights I felt the same with my dog, but thankfully, not being 11, I held back my tears, lol) could only get him to do a down on the pause table when she was on his right side... the side she stood on when she originally trained him to do a down on the table. Anytime she went to his left side or in front, he got confused and just stared at her, but the second she went over to the right, plop, he was down. It was so funny!
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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
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I used to take Sparty to a trainer that was very successful in obedience. Her method was to reach down and move the dog over next to her with a "alright" after. Sparty got to the point that if I looked like I was going to bend over he would move over. She told me that a lot of obedience is hard for a shorter dog because it makes it hard to see your face. Also the corgi habit of sitting crooked is difficult too as many judges will mark you down. I doubt if he would do it now because it has been years since we practiced.
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Thank you, Kerry and Bev! Now I have three different methods to try.
I was also thinking that horses are trained to work from the ground by moving their haunches away from a hand or a touch with a crop/driving whip.
It would probably be very easy to teach a dog to move its hindquarters away as well. I wouldn't use a dog whip because people would assume I was hitting the dog with it, even though I wouldn't be, but I could use some sort of dowel.
I'd be concerned about him over-generalizing, though, and moving away from other things too. He has a tendency to try to think one step ahead of me and offer up behaviors before they are asked for if he's really focused. So I think I'll try the other things first and see how that goes.
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That is true; it's a natural response for a horse to move away from the aids and even a young foal can be easily taught to ground-handle by moving away from the hand pressed against the haunch. A dog is as likely to lean into pressure as move away, so you would need to use shaping to teach the desired response. Again, it would be easy enough to shape a dog to move in response to just about anything, but there are the downsides you mention of needing to move away from the method any way.
I like your idea above (if I'm understanding correctly) of stopping only briefly and then moving on again; if he cannot anticipate whether the "stop-sit" will become a short "sit-stay" or just a pause in the walking, he is more likely to keep his focus straight ahead, on the direction we are going, instead of focusing on me to see what I'll ask him to do next. I also like the idea of tossing a treat in front of him so he's not tipping towards me to get a reward. We had phased out treats pretty much altogether on heel work, but I'll phase them back in to refocus his attention ahead, instead of to the side.
Thanks!
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