Opinion on bummer vet visit
Okay, so today I took Fergie to her first vet visit. She is not due for another vaccination until next week, but I wanted to have at least one positive vet visit under her belt. Well - the best laid plans...... When the vet went to exam her teeth - Fergie got snippy with her. The attending vet - who is not the vet we have been using for the last 9 years, i.e. usual vet - had Fergie in a alpha dog roll/sleeper hold so fast it would raise Caesar Millans eyebrows. She looked at her wrist watch and held her there until Fergie laid down submissively, and then proceeded to tell me what a strong willed dog I had on my hands and that we were in need of immediate training.
Now - I know biting should not be tolerated. We have three young children who have been instructed to not tolerate it (which was pointless because they are drama queens and Fergie gets the point when she nips because they scream wildly and just about dial 911;)), My husband and I do the loud ouch, say no, stop play/affection and redirect with chew toy. This plan worked with our 9 year old corgi and Fergie in comparison is really quite obedient for a 10 week pup.
Am I being naive in thinking that Fergie is not the first dog to not enjoy her teeth being examined, and that this is an area as an owner I need to work with her on, but maybe not not put her on the "aggressive list" just yet.
Just wondering what others think. I would love your input.
Now - I know biting should not be tolerated. We have three young children who have been instructed to not tolerate it (which was pointless because they are drama queens and Fergie gets the point when she nips because they scream wildly and just about dial 911;)), My husband and I do the loud ouch, say no, stop play/affection and redirect with chew toy. This plan worked with our 9 year old corgi and Fergie in comparison is really quite obedient for a 10 week pup.
Am I being naive in thinking that Fergie is not the first dog to not enjoy her teeth being examined, and that this is an area as an owner I need to work with her on, but maybe not not put her on the "aggressive list" just yet.
Just wondering what others think. I would love your input.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on
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Yeah! Puppy classes are good for socialization and for both of you to have fun and learn!
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Permalink Reply by Kimberlie on
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The two visits i have taken adora to get her shots, her vet had commented on how snappy she is, i check her teeth on a regular basis to get her use to it but she doesn't fight much, but during her vet vistits she was all snappy with the vet. vet commented but also took it light heartedly and just told be that she is not concernd about it now since she is in the teething age but i have to make sure it doesn't continue into adult age, and recommended that we get other people(friend and family) practicing examining her mouth so she get use to more than just me doing it. Which i think is a appropriate way to handle it. just becuase a dog doesn't act perfect when it experience something new doesn't mean your dog need to got into training, practice is key. A pup isn't going to know how its suppose to behave on first vistit. I think your vet is a little crazy for expecting a 10 week old pup to be as mature as a full grown perfect dog.
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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My vet says his experience is Corgis are typically great with their own family, but tend to not like being handled by strangers and can get protective. Jack is AWFUL at the vet (doesn't bite, but tries to back off the table and get away and starts to panic) and yet my vet said he's actually quite good compared to other Corgis he's seen, and some of them need to be tranquilized just for an exam.
Maddie, on the other hand, will lie down on the exam table and put her chin down and just start to doze. She was not raised by me but was raised by a very experienced Corgi breeder who also shows, and I attribute most of the difference in behavior to that fact, and part of it to the fact that Maddie likes being held and petted in general, whereas Jack does not.
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Permalink Reply by GoGoRainbow on
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yeah, I agree with maybe talking to the higher ups. It just sounds like... this vet has never had a puppy of their own! Or its been a while and they've completely forgot what a puppy is like at this stage and are in complete adult-dog mind set and the vet's boss could probably give them a good reminder.
I really liked the metaphor about it being like the doctor spanking your child. Good comparison.
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Permalink Reply by KyraMoonUnique on
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We just moved last year and I took ein to a new vet here in Houston. This man took ein from me by the coller not the leash to the exam room. He TOLD me that corgis were vicious dogs and he acted nervous the whole time. He had his assistant put ein in a full body hold and while giving ein a shot ein did a low growl because it hurt. The vet jumped back and yanked his hands behind his back like he was going to get bit. This vet has prob been in business for 35-40 years and His attitude and behaviour were unaccepitable. Needless to say we will never be going back to him. Get another vet.
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Permalink Reply by Ashley and Copper on
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Honestly, puppies are mouthy in general. It will just take some time for Fergie to get used to that kind of stuff. I'm with Beth, I would have been bitching up a storm, told that vet where to go and left. If a your child bit a doctor and the doctor put the kid in a headlock, it would be just as bad because once again, They are just learning. Copper has snipped at me when I point at him in his face. I simply smack him on the nose tell him "No" and or NOT NICE! and he gives me the I'm sorry ma look. Do I think Copper or Fergie will grow up to be vicious attack dogs? No. Copper has come a long way and knows right from wrong. I'm sure Fergie will do the same. They are still puppies and have a lot left to learn. I would find another vet or wait for your other one to get back before taking them. I thank god for my vet's office because me and Copper LOVE going there. Everyone is SO SWEET! :) good luck!
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Permalink Reply by Katy on
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Vets and VTs have to protect themselves and get the job done, the techniques we are trained to use do not hurt the animal. How would you feel if the dog (whether pup or adult) actually bit the vet?
Gina, I think it's something you need to work on with her. Does she snap at you when you mess with her mouth? If you have a friend/s that are comfortable to play with her and make looking at her teeth part of it do it. With my 2 corgis I taught them to hold still on their own when I have their mouth in my hands, and I tell them "Let me see", so long as there is positive reward after them letting you mess around with the mouth it should become less of a problem. Heck, even go to the vet and see if one of the VTs have time to come visit with you in the front room or something with treats and that.
ETA: Dogs are not children(even though I have no children I get this) , I'd much rather a vet put my dog in a submissive restraint than smack him/her on the nose.
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Permalink Reply by Gina Mac/Fergie & Minnie on
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Thanks so much for being the first to weigh in from a professional stand point. I certainly would not have wanted the vet to have been bitten. But the situation at the time did not seem to merit such extreme measures. In fact, the vet stated a few times that she didn't care for some of Caesar Millans philosophies, and that "if you don't have a red zone case on your hands, you should be able to let a dog be a dog". Yet she treated Fergie like a red zone case, even though in my non-professional opinion, she was only acting like a wiggly nippy puppy. I feel like before the whole dominant hold thing, she should have stopped, and educated me on how important it is to work with Fergie on being touched, just as you described. The whole tone of the appointment was weird. Instead of being a light-hearted, new puppy well check, the vet seemed to treat it as an aggressive dog assessment.
I get that dogs aren't kids, and they need to be disciplined accordingly. But you certainly can draw parallels.
With my children, I get way more results with consistency, positive reinforcement, and accountability for actions. A puppy book I reference by Greg Kilcommens expresses the needs for all of these in dog training.
That said, maybe I'm crazy, and Fergie is exceptionally head strong. As I socialize her more, I will be open to opinions both amateur and/or professional opinions and of course choose training that fits me and my dog.
Thanks again for your response.
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Oh and I agree with you to a certain extent, I wasn't there so I can't judge just based on what you're saying. I don't imagine a body slamming type of submission but maybe that's what it was, and that shouldn't have been done. I try to keep in mind what "mom" would do to the pups, seems to help, or other litter mates. In the end it's your pup and it's your decision as to the vet and what was appropriate;just thought I'd give a little help to the vet's/VT perspective (maybe he/she is a Ceasar freak and thinks all dogs are to be submissive to that extreme??lol call Ceasar on them!) And from a professional standpoint there is a difference between correct restraint on any animal and extreme disciplinary actions.
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Hi Katy,
Thanks again for offering a different side to this argument. Obviously we could all debate this topic right into the ground. But it's my job to be a responsible dog owner, move on and solve the problem at hand. What would be your first move on getting Fergie to let me look in her mouth? My girls pick her up all the time, they are obsessed with touching her nub, and she lets me squeeze her paws - although I do need to be armed with treats while clipping her nails. But when I try to get in her mouth, she squirms away. I tried this morning to lure her with a toothbrush and a dab of peanut butter. She let me shove the toothbrush in, but wouldn't let me touch her gums with my fingers. Any ideas?
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If you need to alpha-roll a 10-week-old puppy to protect yourself, then there is a problem. I agree with what you say in principle, but a ten-week-old (just brought home) puppy that is not yet keen on having its teeth examined does not warrant an alpha roll.
Even The Dog Whisperer would never alpha-roll a puppy into submission.
Of course Gina needs to work with the puppy, but it's ten weeks old. At ten weeks, I'd had my puppy for a total of 2 days. "Working with" involves some time. I would never expect someone with a brand-new puppy to have it ready to be handled in every way.
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Permalink Reply by Alice on
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It's true, I have never seen Cesar roll a puppy and I'm pretty sure he commented on this sort or correction not being appropriate for puppies. If you have seen the recent episode where Cesar adopts 3 puppies to demonstrate the proper way to raise a balanced dog, you'll know how calm and gentle he is with youngsters. When he does correct them it is verbal or a slight touch.
When Finn was in puppy classes (4 or 5 months old), he was being very bratty and grabbing the leash and growling when I'd try to make him drop it. The instructor saw this and marched over and rolled him. She was straddling him with both hands pinning his head. I was shocked and didn't know if I should protest but once it was over, the more I thought about it the more I realized I was not ok with pinning a puppy especially with such force. She was not a good trainer at all and I think she watched Cesar one to many times and thought she was the dog whisperer. She said my husband should roll him when he acts that way towards me which doesn't even make sense. How exactly is someone else rolling him supposed to teach him that I'm the boss? Needless to say, he still throws tantrums with the leash now that he's almost a year and a half old. My husband, in an attempt to trust that the trainer knew what she was talking about, did roll him a few times during his tantrums and I often wonder it this made it worse. I wish I had gone with my initial feeling of not being comfortable with that type of correction but when you go to a professional you put your faith in them and you want to trust that they know what's best. There is nothing wrong with questioning something that you don't understand or makes you uncomfortable.
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