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Permalink Reply by Karen Dadisman on April 19, 2011 at 8:52am

I am no fan of dog parks. Too many dogs, too few responsible owners. Sounds like Teddy was defending himself and then got scared. If it were me, I'd avoid the dog park. Why ask for trouble. Invite friends with reliable dogs over for Teddy to play with if you want him to play with other dogs. Actually, most dogs do just fine with their people to play with and they don't need other dogs. Just my opinion.

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Permalink Reply by Sam Tsang on April 19, 2011 at 9:12am

Hi Rebecca,

 

Yup, Teddy was in the wrong, big dogs are not to be herd. Unfortunately the pit tried to correct Teddy's behaviour but was prevented by his owner, so the issue was not resolve, Teddy did not receive the discipline from the pit and will most likely do it again with other dogs. As herding dog owners, we need to be extra careful around bigger dogs. Yes, our dog's instinct is to chase, run around, bark and nip at cattle, but the average dog owners don't know, won't understand and will not have the patience to listen to your explanation on why such a small dog can do such things. They will only see them as little yappy dogs that bite / hurt their dogs.

 

So what can you do? Practice emergency recall, when you see Teddy acting inappropriately, call him back, if he refuse to listen, stay calm, don't yell, no words, just simply remove him from the situation and location immediately. Don't discipline him on the spot, don't discipline other dogs on the spot, don't attract any attention, leave quietly. 

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Permalink Reply by Rebecca Marie O'Bryan on April 19, 2011 at 10:22am

he does come back to me when called and i have left before if his instincts were getting out of hand. i do see what you are saying but i am a bit confused as the pit was on a leash already and teddy wasnt trying to herd him, he was trying to get him to play. the pit was standing still. when the owner let the pit smell teddy, teddy got still and lowered his body to the ground and lowered his ears. then the pit lunged at him and thats when things got nasty.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on April 19, 2011 at 10:22am

Hi Rebecca.  My Maddie can be a bit like your Teddy.  She will run right up to other dogs.  On a leash if another dog barks at her, she'll hit the end of the leash and bark back.  We have trained her to focus on us and not do this.  She is insecure with big dogs and so she tends to act first, but it can cause some problems.  We tend to keep her away from any dogs who aren't totally dog-friendly if we are on-leash (she's better off-leash).  She does have a big group she plays nicely with, but they are all dogs who don't mind being chased and nipped at.  Big goofy dogs are the best bet, and she's also good with dogs around her size or smaller. 

 

Jack is my dog-savvy dog.  The proper way to approach a strange dog who is on its toes is with deference;  Jack will approach calmly with his ears plastered back and body slightly lowered to say "I'm no threat."  Then he will politely sniff and allow himself to be sniffed.  If a dog is posturing excessively Jack won't approach at all.  If the dog is shy/nervous, Jack will lie down.  If the dog play bows and then leaps straight at Jack's head, Jack will respond in kind and play.   He is NOT a submissive dog at all and I have seen more dogs than I can count approach Jack on their bellies and lick the corners of his mouth (looks pretty funny when the dog in question weighs 75 pounds...), and I've seen him roll over exuberant adolescents who don't mind their manners (in play).  But dogs who are truly confident with other dogs know that the safest way to approach is in a conciliatory manner and Jack always does that with large dogs or groups of strange dogs.  I trust his judgement.

For dogs like Maddie and Teddy who are prone to charging right up to strange dogs with no introductions and jumping and barking, it's best to not do direct approaches unless the other dog is unflappable.  If you want to meet a new dog, do the parallel walking and then after that see if they'll greet calmly.  If not go back to walking again. Many dogs are not good at nose-to-nose encounters on leash.   I agree that dogparks can be uncontrolled chaos with some poorly socialized dogs and aren't always the best place to do socializing work.  They are good places for happy-go-lucky dogs who tolerate rude behavior from other dogs. 

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Permalink Reply by Becky S on April 19, 2011 at 1:12pm

On the offleash dog trails that we go to, we've needed to leave the leash attached (for quick grab if necessary) and when other dogs are approaching, have them focus on us (hot dog piece in hand) until we can tell what the energy level of the approaching dog is and whether they will get a meet and greet.  Left to their own devices, they charge up to the bigger dogs, and do just like what Sam was saying,,,, we know it's only their way of playing, but other dog owners don't.  So far it's been getting much better. 

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Permalink Reply by Rebecca Marie O'Bryan on April 20, 2011 at 6:24am

thanks Becky, i am going to keep his leash attached just in case i need to pull him away. i want to bring teats but im afraid every dog will attack me for them lol

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Permalink Reply by Jane on April 19, 2011 at 1:19pm

I'm always very cautious of dogs on leash, especially at the dog park. A lot of dogs behave very differently on leash and don't like being run up on by other dogs. You said Teddy was running around wanting to play, but what was the pit doing? How long was it restrained while Teddy ran around it? It may have felt it was already at a disadvantage because it was on a leash and Teddy wasn't, or it could have mistaken Teddy's play for some annoying or threatening behavior and tried to correct him for it. If it really truly wanted to hurt Teddy I don't think he would have missed twice.

 

I'm not trying to say Teddy is totally to blame, but remember what may be fun and playful to your dog may be upsetting to another. Luke for example does not like big dogs play chasing him, or using their big paws to try and play with him. It drives me crazy when someone allows their dog (it was a young rott last weekend) to continually upset him because "oh he's just playing." When we're at the dog park we walk the perimeter and keep the interactions with the other dogs very brief. When we get close to the main area where there are lots of other people/dogs, we call our dogs back to us and make sure they know we have very yummy treats so they stay very close to us as we walk through that area.

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Permalink Reply by Rebecca Marie O'Bryan on April 20, 2011 at 6:23am

thanks Jan, thats actually a good idea and im going to do that if things look as though they can get nasty. and now i see what u and sam are saying. to us & teddy we knew he just wanted to play but to the pit he probably thought he was being threatened.  the pit was just siting there and then tried to look at teddy but the ownder kept making him focus on him. teddy only ran around him for maybe 15 seconds. then he just kinda stood there and then he made this grunt noise which he does when he wants to play

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Permalink Reply by Melissa and Franklin! on April 19, 2011 at 9:38pm

Since teddy is still in a delicate part of his training and has exhibited scared behavior towards dogs before I would NEVER take him to the dog park. If this situation did not set him back I can guarantee another one will. Many owners won't think ahead and put their overly rambunctious or aggressive dogs on a leash like the pit's owner did. If that was the case then teddy likely would have been bowled over and roughed up by an overly exuberant dog and a real fight may have broken out. Franklin's personality was ruined by dog parks and I wish I could go back in time to when I had never taken him. It only took one or two bad situations to put it in his head that every playful dog is trying to kill him. Now it takes a good 20 minutes or more for him to warm up to other dogs to the point where he is comfortable playing with them.

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Permalink Reply by Rebecca Marie O'Bryan on April 20, 2011 at 6:18am

im sorry that happened to Franklin, and really can relate. teddy isnt scared anymore of dogs and thats why i was bringing him to the dog park, if he still have shown signs of being scared then of course i wouldnt have. during his training i took it at his pace and one day as we walked by the dog park he sat down and watched the other dogs at a distance. then everyday as we walked by he got closer & closer until he played with the dogs on the outside the fence. i asked the owners with the calmest dogs to go for a walk with me so teddy could get use to it. at first teddy ran behind me but then greeted the dogs. after 2weeks of that, i went in with the dogs he knew. if a new dog came in i would leash him up and we would walk by them and leave, after awhile before i had even seen a new dog enter he would just go up and greet.  there are times he wants nothing to do with a dog that is walking by so i just have him sit and if he wants to greet thats find but if not thats fine too. now 97% he dosnt growl uless the passer by's dog is barking/going crazy.

 

i really wish i could go back in time and not go on the day he got attacked by the pit and rottie. it was horrible to see and it has changed him

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Permalink Reply by Beth on April 19, 2011 at 10:08pm

Rebecca, I wanted to add that I didn't want to imply that Teddy was "wrong" and the other dog was "right."  I think sometimes we responsible owners can get caught up in trying to define dog behavior as "good" or "bad" as if there is only one dog culture, and there's not.  An Italian person you barely know might greet you with a peck on both cheeks whereas it's impolite to greet an orthodox Jewish woman who is not accompanied by her spouse (at least in my neighborhood) if you are not already acquainted.  Is one "right" and the other "wrong?"  No, they are just different cultures and different personalities.  

Running over the top of each other is perfectly acceptable behavior for a lab but not for most Shelties.  Nipping or barking is normal for Corgis and not for some other dogs.  That's why dog parks can get a little funny.  

 

Teddy ran up exuberantly to a dog who sounds like he has very low tolerance; his owner indicated his own dog elicits this behavior in other dogs often which means he's giving off some signals.  A more laid-back dog would have thought Teddy's advances to be perfectly fine.  Then again, if Teddy were more laid-back, when the Pit launched he would have stepped out of the way.

One of my pet peeves is reading online as to whose dog is "right" when there are teeth involved.  There is a very good e-mail that goes around about dog language that starts out with "He was just saying hello!" and correctly talking about normal dogs being labelled "bad" for gently correcting adolescent over-exuberance.  But then the same story goes on (I think it's the same one) to talk about how someone's pack of German Shepherds "correctly" corrected a "rude" smaller dog, and the "rude" dog was "wrong" when it fled from the Shepherds, making it a more inviting target.  I think that is going to extremes to excuse the behavior of a pack of Shepherds.  The owner's response that the behavior was acceptable because the Shepherds did not hurt the other dog badly just doesn't fly well with me, and some people blame their own dog's lack of tolerance on the rudeness of others.  Sort of like saying the guy with road rage was justified because another driver failed to signal, IMO.  

 

Anyway, I got sort of off topic but the point is that no dog was clearly right or clearly wrong.  Teddy approached an unstable dog excitedly and wanted to play.  The other dog got reactive and corrected (did not mean to bite or it would have).  Teddy then reacted to that and got in a nip which set off the other dog and Teddy fled.  There are many things that would have ended up differently if either dog was calmer in approach or if either dog was more laid-back about the other dog's correction, but these things happen. 

 

I hope Teddy continues to do well in his training. 

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Permalink Reply by Rebecca Marie O'Bryan on April 20, 2011 at 6:09am

thank you so much for the info Beth, it makes sense of what you are saying. i was just kinda confused as what to think in that situation. normally teddy is very laid back but that day for some reason he had more energy. i do like dog parks but like everyone is saying. most people who bring there dogs didnt train them well and are rude and thanks to that he got attacked by a pit at 4months which started this behavior. i am moving to AR next week and i have already contacted some people on here for a corgi play date so i think i will stay away from dog parks and just have play dates with people that i know dogs are well behaved

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